Christianity–In Possession of Truth

Knowledge that is based on ultimate truth, then, can only be provided by God the Creator, who knows everything and is the source of truth. Christ, the God-Man, said, “I am the way, the truth, and the life” John 14:6. Note that He not only speaks truth; He is the truth! Thus, any claim to knowledge that contradicts what Christ said and what God’s Word says is false. – Dr. John C. Witcomb

I am genuinely pleased to see my friend Ark sharing his views – albeit, very wrong and poorly understood- on Christianity. 

The great thing though is that Ark thinks and speaks more about our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ and His father, Yahweh Elohim than most who profess to be Christians.

Great job friend; one of these days the scales of pride that you wield as a badge of honor will fall from your spiritual eyes, and you will see things with a clarity that’s afforded only to those with a humble heart.

Grace, grace, grace to your mountain of pride.

Before I address your points, I want to reference this brilliant piece by Lyle Duell. I hope you read it: Against Reason,  Systems and Idols 

Now on to the 5 points you’ve made.

1. Christianity (also Judaism and Islam) is built upon a foundation of violence.

Christianity is built upon the foundation of sacredness. Love. Love God, love others – and this includes your enemies, real or perceived. In this seemingly simple yet oh so very profound command, there is absolutely no room for violence for all life is sacred.

Your life is sacred Ark, Jesus demonstrated that.

2. Christianity’s claim for the need of salvation has no basis in truth as the Human Genome Project has shown that, an Historical Adam and Eve as portrayed in the bible could not possibly have existed and thus, no Original Sin.

If the HGP has demonstrated what you’ve claimed, why then do you suppose that Dr. Collins is [still] a Christian?

If there is no sin, why is there death? If there is no sin, why are there courthouses and jails in your country.

3. It has been demonstrated that, the story of a global, genocidal flood as portrayed in the bible is scientifically impossible.

I scanned the linked article and your premise is basically, “It doesn’t stand up to my significantly limited reasoning capabilities how El Elyon did it, therefore I conclude it certainly didn’t or couldn’t have happened as portrayed in the Bible.”

If you haven’t, now is a good time to read my brother Lyle’s post on Reason. Here’s this gem from it:

“What happens when reason forgets that she is not God? Well, she will attempt to storm the very throne of God and pretend to be God.  In this, she becomes what the ancients called an idol.  We could conclude from this that the building of systems is nothing more than modern man’s building of temples for the idols of the human mind.

When reason alone looks for God, she is not searching for God with a capital G, she really is looking for a god that she can manipulate and place in her system or her temple of idols.”

4. Archaeology has demonstrated, through evidence that runs contrary to the bible, there is no basis in fact in the tale of the Exodus, which is now regarded as a foundation myth.

This is simply a false statement. Your so-called evidence cannot and did not prove that the Exodus was a myth; neither is it capable of disproving the Biblical account of the Exodus.

In the words of the apostle Paul, my dear Ark it’s time to turn away from godless, foolish discussions and be very wary of pseudo-science/false knowledge.

Also pass on to my brothers Peter and Kia – don’t deceive yourselves friends, evil communications corrupt good manners. This has been demonstrated by the steady, downward spiral in the caliber of comments made by them.

5. There is no verifiable evidence for the claimed divinity of the biblical character, Jesus of Nazareth. Neither, in fact, is there any  contemporary evidence whatsoever for the character.

Another gross nonsense statement. Of course there’s much evidence for the divinity of Jesus of Nazareth. A better claim for you is that you’re not convinced by the evidence; but to say there’s no evidence causes you to lose any thread of credibility you may have been hanging your incredulously prideful life on.

Wisdom begins by esteeming the Lord.

But what does that say about the man who has not yet gotten to the place where he can even acknowledge that a God [the Creator of the universe] exists.

Keep searching for truth my friend. I promise if you are genuine and humble about it and search for it with all your heart, you’ll have no choice but to find it. Such is the way of Truth.

Truth is a person! And when you possess Truth, the Truth possesses you! Smile

 

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96 thoughts on “Christianity–In Possession of Truth”

  1. If I may be so bold as to say: what a wonderful example of apologetics.
    The evidence of what actually happened in Palestine (Canaan) is there for any who wish to look.
    Ask William Dever, Israel Finkelstein or any archaeologist.

    The Egyptian captivity, Exodus and settlement of Canaan are all Jewish foundational myths and have nothing to do with Christianity – other than what the Christians hijacked, of course.

    Perhaps you could provide a link to an archaeologist who firmly believes in the biblical story of Moses, Joshua et al and who also provide archaeological evidence?

    That way we could have an interesting discussion rather than a back and forth solely filled with rhetoric?

    Your call?

    1. Ark: “The evidence of what actually happened in Palestine (Canaan) is there for any who wish to look.
      Ask William Dever, Israel Finkelstein or any archaeologist.”

      Seriously? Someone had the great fortune of acquiring video of exactly what happened in Canaan during that time. That’s quite a miracle!
      And a bold statement considering the fact that these finds/evidence that you refer to can never independently confirm nor deny the authenticity of the Biblical record.

      Have to go, have a very Blessed day.

      1. Of course not!
        And that’s the whole point and the beauty of how God has set up this whole system: we’re provided with enough evidence, and it’s up to each individual to weigh the evidence presented to them and to decide whether or not they believe it.

      2. Seriously? Someone had the great fortune of acquiring video of exactly what happened in Canaan during that time. That’s quite a miracle!

        Sadly,this is the type of ”Ken Ham” response that is not only fallacious but seriously irresponsible.

        It is also completely anti-science for which even moderate Christians usually cringe over and try to distance themselves from.

        The evidence uncovered that shows the settlement of Palestine/Canaan is archaeological and archaeologists of all stripes, and not just biblical minimalists – other than religious fundamentalists – agree that the Exodus story is nothing but a foundational myth.

        The evidence uncovered to date shows how the area of ancient Canaan was settled.
        It shows how people began to separate from coastal tribes and moved inland and established villages.

        An exodus of around 2 million people would have left traces, if not in the desert, then certainly there would have been evidence of the arrival of such a massive amount of people, not least huge numbers of weapons ( attackers and defenders alike) used in the genocidal campaigns supposedly carried out by Joshua.
        Of this, there is nothing. Not a shred of evidence.
        Neither is there any pottery evidence, often the very first thing to turn up. And such finds would be unique in as much their type/design would be influenced by so many years of captivity under the Egyptians.
        How much pottery evidence do you think one could reasonably expect for 2 million people? Ball park?

        The area in question was, at the time, controlled by the Egyptians who had military forts throughout the area.
        Would you not consider it reasonable that such a vast multitude would have been first, missed, and second, noticed?

        Consider the Armana letters for example.
        While evidence does suggest that attempts to remove military defeats to show military leaders in a better light there is no evidence whatsoever to indicate the entire Egyptian army was wiped out as per the biblical tale.
        Neither is there any physical evidence to suggest a massive economic and social collapse as would have happened to any country of just over 4 million people should around half of this population suddenly upped and left.

        At Kadesh Barnia where the ”wandering Israelites were supposed to have camped for years, much archaeological work has been carried out.
        Not a single trace of the Exodus has been found irrespective of which time frame the Exodus is placed.

        One could go n and on but I am merely relaying what archaeologists have known for several generatons already.
        It is only fundamentalists, and specifically Christian biblical literalists who refuse to accept the evidence.
        You case is not with me, but rather almost the entire scientific body operating in this field.

        All this is available. All you have to do is Google it if you do not want to buy books.
        You can even watch Youtube videos ’til you eyes go square.

        However …. find me an archaeologist who is recognised by his peers and/ or can produce some evidence for the biblical story then I am perfectly willing to reconsider, and maybe almost every archaeologist on the planet who is involved in some way in this field.

        Thanks.

  2. Ark and those of his ilk are like Thomas, who said, “I will not believe.” It wasn’t for a lack of information or testimony (his co-disciples gave him an eyewitness report), it was a matter of the will.

    There is no harm in arguing with them for sport or to hone your apologetic skills, but until they see Jesus for themselves, up close and personal, they will not believe.

    May the Lord give them all a saving, healing look at those nail marks, may He draw them tight to His pierced side.

    Blessed are we who have not seen and yet have believed.

    1. I agree with you 100%. It’s for this very reason I say that Ark wears his pride as a badge of honor. – Ark takes great pride in being very prideful.
      My goal is not to engage with a dueling [back & forth] of what the “experts” have to say.

      So true, he/they must see Jesus up close and personally. It’s for this reason I shout grace to his mountain of pride.
      I know until he sees Jesus for himself, everything I say seems like rubbish.

    2. @Julie

      Ark and those of his ilk are like Thomas, who said, “I will not believe.” It wasn’t for a lack of information or testimony (his co-disciples gave him an eyewitness report), it was a matter of the will.

      Thank you , Julie.

      Have you , in fact read, and studied the bible? Have you read up on Marcion, for example?

      And may I inquire what was the evidence that convinced you of the truth of the biblical claims?

      Regards.
      Ark.

      1. Ark, yes, I have read and studied the Bible.

        No, I have not read up on Marcion, I only know that he saw differences between the OT teachings and the NT teachings and when he tried to point them out the early church rejected him. I’ve pointed out some misinterpretations and misteachings and been rejected, too, so I’ve kinda’ felt his pain. But neither my pain nor his changes my faith in God. It changes my faith in church leaders, but not in God.

        Yes, you may inquire, and I hope it’s a sincere inquiry because I’m about to give you a considerable amount of my time.

        My dad was raised Protestant and my mom was raised Catholic. When they married, my dad converted to Catholicism because that was the deal back then. He took the classes and then he taught the classes.

        We said grace at dinner, we said our prayers before bed, we sat in the cry room on Sunday mornings.

        When I was in first grade I started attending catechism classes. I was given a workbook with Jesus on the cover. He was sitting under a tree with a big smile on His face and children on His lap. I was drawn to that smiling face, to those eyes that delighted in the children before Him. I couldn’t wait to learn all about Him.

        But there were some boys in the class, minions, who kept us from opening the book. 95% of our class time was spent with my hands folded quietly on my desk waiting for the teachers to chase the boys back into their seats.

        Not long after that we stopped going to church. Something about abortion and excommunication and my fourth grade sister making something up to confess and being too intelligent for such nonsense….

        No more grace, no more bedtime prayers. It felt like we were booting a member of our family.

        Laying in my trundle bed one night I said, “That’s okay, Jesus, you can stay with me.”

        But over barren years I forgot all about Him.

        I had a work-study job in the Fisheries and Wildlife office when I was in college. One of the secretaries befriended me. She sometimes invited me to softball games at her church but I was way too cool.

        One weekend home I learned that my dad’s journey through lots of metaphysical readings ended with faith in Christ. His wife told me he was praying for my sisters and me. I thought that was nice and that, as a result, I would probably be a Christian, too, one day. Whichever day God decided it would be. I went on my merry way not feeling any need, desire or compulsion.

        I graduated and moved home to my mother’s house not too long afterward while my secretary friend started fighting Hodgkins disease. She told me that people whom she didn’t even know were coming up to her at church to say they were praying for her.

        So laying on the sofa in the library at my mom’s house one night, I thought, Well, if I’m going to be a Christian some day, I might as well start now. So I prayed for her, too, and I asked God to bring something good out of her suffering.

        Immediately my spirit, still attached to my body by a thin silver strand, was before the throne. It was like a zoom lens. And I saw God. Just as I zoomed in, Jesus stood up to greet me. He was transparent and I could see His Father seated behind him holding a scepter and smiling. It was an unforgettable smile that said “I have everything under control and I am pleased.”

        And then I had a thought, If I stay too long I might not be able to go back.

        And with that buzz-killing thought I was back on the sofa.

        And I whispered into the air, “I remember You!” I remembered the cover of that book and my longing to know Him. It was like being reunited with and old forgotten friend.

        That is when our 32-year-long-and-continuing conversation began. That’s when I started studying the Bible, too.

        Sometimes I regret not opening my mouth and asking, when I was there at the throne, if it would be okay to stay.

        But that glimpse was enough – enough to sustain me through tough and confusing times in the past and enough to give me peace in this unsettling present and, I trust, enough to get me through tougher times in the future.

        I know you asked for Biblical evidence you could refute, but it isn’t Biblical evidence that convinced me. It was that glimpse, that smile.

        Arguing with me would be no fun for you because, my faith is not in the Bible and,unlike many other Christians, I will not twist myself into a pretzel trying to defend the inerrancy of it. God is without error, but those have taken His dictation, translated and taught it are not.

        God, remember when you showed yourself to me that night? Will you do that for Ark, too?

      2. Thanks for this.
        But your story does not provide me with any confidence in your evidence but rather little more than a familiar conversion story based on emotional issues that is repeated in one form or an other by every convert I have come into contact with.

        As for your god, Yahweh, he is simply a Canaanite deity adopted by the tribe that called themselves Israelites.
        He was one of a pantheon of Canaanite gods who at one time had a consort, Asherah, was later dumped and Yahweh elevated to top spot.
        You can find this information from any decent site about the Ugaritic texts and Yahweh.

        If this was truly the creator of the universe one has to ask why do you think he does not reveal himself to every Hindu, Jew, Muslim, Buddhist and of course every other individual of the 40,000 and growing different Christian sects who are continually in dispute over doctrine and what is considered a ”True Christian” ™

        Ark.

      3. He has made His existence known to every Hindu, Jew, Muslim, Buddhist and every other individual who has ever seen the birth of a child, looked over the railing of the Grand Canyon, gazed up at the night sky, witnessed the aurora borealis or any of the wonders in every other part of the world. He has revealed Himself to anyone whose heart has leapt or been touched or broken or inspired.

        The heavens declare the glory of God;
        the skies proclaim the work of his hands. Day after day they pour forth speech; night after night they reveal knowledge.
        They have no speech, they use no words; no sound is heard from them.
        Yet their voice goes out into all the earth, their words to the ends of the world.

        Of course my story provides you no evidence, you asked what provided me evidence.

        It makes sense that every Christian would have a similar story. When Jesus invited His disciples to come fish with Him, He didn’t send them a finely crafted argument, a piece of evidence. He came face to face. Just like He did with me. Just like I pray He will do for you and every other individual who needs to see more glory than the heavens declare.

      4. Ah, flowery rhetoric.

        It makes sense that every Christian would have a similar story.

        As we are all supposed to be sinners and destined for hell and eternal torture by your god if we donlt convert it seems common sense to convert those who are fully compos mentis and not those who are emotiona wrecks and cripples.

        It follows therefore, that if Yahweh converted you he has the power to do it to everyone. Your semantic episode will not wash with me I am sad to say, and it certainly wont wash with other god-believers from other religions who consider you as much a heretic or heathen as you consider them.
        Why pray on your god’s behalf?

        Let him get off of his lazy arse and do it himself. He doesn’t need puny humans to do his dirty work. He created the universe remember?

      5. Did I call you a heretic or a heathen? I don’t recall. Now forgive me but I have a glorious variety of flowers to water. God, what an Artist.

        And go easy on those empty words…Matthew 12:36

      6. Not me, silly … I meant other god- believers. Those that believe in their gods but not the monster loving peaceful Canaanite deity you genuflect to.

        Empty words 🙂
        As opposed to the made up words from your interpolated made-up largely plagiarized version of gMark, the gMatthew which you wish to refer me to?

        *Smile*.
        Christians are so funny sometimes.
        Have you hugged your vegetarian dinosaur lately?

      7. May I just point out that whatever/whoever you worship doesn’t seem to be doing you much good? You sound awfully angry and bitter.

      8. *Smile*
        Ah, Julie. This is such a typical emotionally baseless response by apologists it has become almost passe.
        The assumption that I must have had a fallout with the local Priest/Pastor. Or worse, been raped. Or my spouse ran away with the milkman or, I have a rotten boss so this is why I ”Hate God.” *Sigh*
        Bitter? Not in the least!

        Angry? Hmmm. Well, maybe a little bit. When you consider the hurt and pain caused by religion, the terrible wars – past and present -fought over which god is right ( when, in fact, none are) r fallacious religious doctrine.
        When you consider that people worship ”Invisible Friends” and are fleeced by religious charlatans and labelled sinners and condemned to ”hell” for being gay, or the wrong type of Christian or Muslim.
        And when you consider we are in the 21st century and a great many people are simply so incredibly ignorant that they accept religion as a panacea based not only on zero evidence but false evidence and lies.

        But mostly, when you realise the millions of children worldwide abused and traumatized by religious doctrine, raped and brutalized by proponents of religion. Indoctrinated by utterly ignorant fuckwits like Ken Ham and Ken Hovind and a host of other batshit crazy Creationists, Islamic fundamentalists and other religious halfwits. I fact, defenseless children from every religion, but especially Christianity and Islam who indoctrinate them to believe in spurious lies and to hate other people.

        Now, these are a few very good reasons to be a little angry and I am sure you would agree, yes?

      9. Yes, I do agree that there are plenty of reasons to be angry with religion, but I see absolutely no reason to be angry with Jesus. Why are you angry with Jesus?

        He has an enormous amount of power for an imaginary friend. The power to redeem people and the power to keep them from making snarky, accusatory, bitter, “dinosaur hugging” (whatever that means) comments.

        I’m sure you’ve read Evidence That Demands A Verdict and More Than Just A Carpenter so you know the Watergate argument. It’s a solid point.

        In case you forgot the question: Why are you angry with Jesus?

      10. I am not angry with ‘Jesus!’ Lol. Good grief, I am an atheist, for heavens’ goodness’ sake.

        Oh, dear; there you go with the ”bitter” thing again. Really, Julie, this is the 21st century not 1st century Palestine.
        What on earth do you believe I have to be bitter about regarding your religion?

        Re: ”Dinosaur Hugging”.. My apologies, I took it as given you are a Young Earth Creationist. These nutters believe dinosaurs and humans co-existed before the ”Flood” and prior to this were all plant eaters. Sin later made some of them develop sharp, pointy teeth and a bad attitude.
        I am relieved you are not one of these seriously retarded individuals

        No, I have not read, ”More than just a carpenter”. What else was he, a bricklayer?

        While there may have been someone called Yeshua running around Palestine, but the biblical character, Jesus of Nazareth is a literary construct. It would be like being angry at Harry Potter. How silly would that be?

        1.What power do you believe Jesus has, exactly?

        2.Please explain how he redeems. And for that matter what is there to redeem?

        Thanks.

      11. “It would be like being angry at Harry Potter. How silly would that be?”

        It would be very silly, just as silly as proselytizing against him. Which begs the question: If Jesus is merely a literary construct and those who follow Him (Christians) are merely literary fans, why do you proselytize against Him and us?

        Do you also proselytize against Prince Lyov Nikolaevich Myshkin? Jean Valjean? Charlie Brown? The Easter Bunny? Whatever that thing is you’ve chosen for your gravatar?

        Or is Jesus the only fictitious literary device that has captured your imagination? If so, why Him?

        As far as your two closing questions, nope, sorry, you’ve lost your cred. You claim to be on a quest for evidence and yet you haven’t even taken the time to read the classics. Read at least one of them, “More Than Just a Carpenter” is the shorter of the two, and get back with me.

      12. I write about the character, Jesus of Nazareth because of all the vile things I listed. Because adults – possibly like you – indoctrinate children that this character is real, for the gods’ sake, when in fact, there in absolutely no evidence to support such a monstrous claim whatsoever.

        And worse, christians poison young kids’ minds that if they do not admit they are ”sinners” and worship this literary construct they will spend eternity being tortured in another fictitious realm called Hell, apparently created by your all loving deity, Yahweh/Yeshua.

        This is why I write what I do.

        As for your: ”you’ve lost your street cred” comment.
        Are you now afraid to defend you faith and resort to telling me I have no ”Street Cred”?

        Truly, I could give a monkey’s uncle what you consider classic literature literature in this regard.
        I am a reasonably intelligent bloke and have read one or two things on the character Jesus, just not this particular one.

        I have also read the bible cover to cover, and still read it for reference, which is considerably more than the vast majority of hypocritical holier- -than-bloody-thou so-called Christians(sic) have done or ever will.
        As for classics.
        Have you read any Josephus, Tacitus, or Gibbon? How about Aquinus?
        How about Jesus 2000?
        What about Stephen Hawking?

        And what about anything by Israel Finkelstein or William Dever?
        The last two are archaeologists and have been instrumental in demonstrating just how nonsensical things like the Exodus was.

        Now that is far more important than reading yet another worn out ignorant apologist argument.
        I am surprised you didn’t suggest Lewis or Craig, or worse, Strobel.

        Why not read Finkelstein at least, then get back to me.
        Then maybe we can discuss evidence rather than apologetics?

      13. Great question.
        As far as I can tell, Ark has never been able to articulate a convincing answer.

        He swears he’s not angry; yet in the same breath he denigrates, mocks, insults, blasphemes the Jesus of Nazareth he ‘knows does not exist’.
        Strange and inexplicable!

        As mentioned before, Ark’s greatest problem is a spirit of tremendous pride which by its very nature is an unteachable spirit. 😦
        I’ll continue to join you in lifting him up in prayers; that this mountain of pride will be made into a plain.

        Thanks for taking the time to engage him. It may seem like it’s getting nowhere, but we do our part and allow the Holy Spirit to do the work.

        Stay Blessed!

      14. Julie, it’s clear that millions have lived and died with no knowledge of Jesus. Given that Jesus is the only way to heaven, this is a problem.

    3. Hi Julie

      Yes, Thomas doubted, and what did Jesus do? He provided evidence. “To them He presented Himself alive after His passion by many proofs” (Acts 1:3). Indeed, to thomas he said “Put your finger here, and see my hands, and take your hand and stick it into my side, and stop being unbelieving but become believing.”

      Become believing… via proof. Via evidence.

      1. Evidence is tangible, Julie… and jesus, by the story, clearly understood that no none could be expected to believe without “evidence.”

      2. That’s true Zande.
        However that’s totally different than choosing to remain unconvinced by the evidence presented to you.

        What did Jesus also say – Thomas, you saw the evidence and that’s the reason you have believed…. Blessed are those who have NOT seen, but still believe.
        There is a greater blessing in being able to believe without seeing Jesus physically.

        “God’s humility [in presenting Himself to Thomas] brought Thomas to a place of surrender. God will meet the skeptics if they are willing to look at the evidence that He gives them. Jesus can turn doubt into belief.”

        Are you humble enough to look at the evidence He’s left you with Zande.

      3. Well, if Jesus didn’t expect his own apostles to believe without evidence then he could hadly be upset with skeptics today. In fact, by his own words and actions, he would never expect anyone to believe.

      4. Once again your first sentence is correct.

        However, we’re not without evidence.
        I agree that some people require more evidence than others; but it’s for them to display the humility that Jesus did and present themselves over to Him (as He did to Thomas) and take a look at the subsequent evidences He presents to them.
        Humility John, is profoundly essential. Pride is an unteachable spirit. If we wish to learn, we must know that we do not know everything, and seek wisdom and knowledge from the One who does and gives to all who ask of Him.

        It takes humility to ask God to reveal Himself to you.
        I sincerely hope you’ll lay aside your massive ego and do just that.

        The issue is not evidence – there’s plenty of that.
        edited to add: you’re “supposedly” looking for additional evidence [though, even I know you’re not… you say it, but you’re certainly not looking for it… it would be great if you were though]

        See, God knows the heart of each person… and when we genuinely seek, we will/must find.

      5. You responded while I was adding to this exact statement as I wanted to expand a bit on my thoughts.
        Here’s what I added, addressing this exact issue:

        “edited to add: you’re “supposedly” looking for additional evidence [though, even I know you’re not… you say it, but you’re certainly not looking for it… it would be great if you were though]

        See, God knows the heart of each person… and when we genuinely seek, we will/must find.

        You’re not looking for evidence John, unfortunately. You’re full of know-it-all prideful thoughts. How can you receive anything from God? It’s not that He’s not giving… He is… you’re just incapable of receiving. Such is the nature of pride.

        How can there not be evidence when we were discussing Thomas being presented with additional evidence.
        Do like Thomas…ask for additional evidence. But don’t exalt your lowly understanding above His. You’re no longer a child.

      6. Rest assured, I’ve looked at the evidence and found it quite telling. You see, what the evidence reveals is that Jesus is not a credible witness. According to the Lectric Law Library a credible witness is someone “competent and worthy of belief… an individual capable of knowing the thing thoroughly about which he testifies.”

        Now, Jesus claimed to be credible. He said “I came into the world to testify to the truth. Everyone on the side of truth listens to me” (John 18:38). Strong words, a robust statement, and certainly something one would expect a god incarnate to say. The headache however here for the Christian apologist who’s left to actually defend the claim is that if we apply the definition of credibility to Jesus he fails it in a specular and unignorable way. Indeed, through the course of his own words Jesus reveals himself to in fact be so incompetent that no court today could possibly accept him as a credible witness for it can be proven that he simply didn’t know what he was talking about.

        By the gospel accounts Jesus makes a number of historical claims (including a failed prediction of his own second coming), but for the sake of brevity let us focus on just one test case: Moses. In total, Moses is mentioned a whopping eighty-five times in the New Testament with Jesus directly naming him twice in Matthew (including a rather bizarre face-to-face meeting detailed in 17:3-4), and in John 5:45 where he says: “If you believed Moses, you would believe me, for he wrote about me.” Now this is an unambiguous statement; a clear and definitive declaration that Jesus believed Moses was a real person who, we’re told, spent a great deal of time with the god of the Tanakh, who Jesus not only claims to speak for, but also be… and this is when things turn awkward. A century of exhaustive archaeological work conducted across Israel and its environs has revealed that Moses was no more a real historical character than King Arthur, Beowulf, or Sponge Bob Square Pants were real historical characters. Moses, we now know with a great deal of certainty, was a legendary motif; a fable which the majority of Jewish rabbis today openly concede was knitted together in the 7th and 6th Century BCE, and whose birth story was, for example, adapted straight from the far older Babylonian tale of King Sargon of Agade:

        “My humble mother bore me secretly. She put me in a basket of rushes and sealed me in with asphalt. Then she put me into the river…. The river held me up, and carried me to Akki, the irrigator who drew water from the river for the people. As he dipped his jug into the river, Akki carried me out. He raised me as his own son.”

        So definitive is the evidence against a historical Moses (and the Exodus he supposedly led) that the second edition Encyclopaedia Judaica concludes that the entire narrative was “dramatically woven out of various strands of tradition… he [Moses] wasn’t a historical character.” Indeed, so definitive is the evidence against Moses that the word “myth” has now even penetrated the thought-to-be-impenetrable walls of Orthodox Judaism. In 2012 Rabi Louis Jacobs sent shockwaves through the Orthodox world when he declared in his book, Torah from Heaven, that Moses and the story surrounding him was little more than a “foundation myth;” an origin dream, not a descriptive historical fact.

        Now Jesus’ colossal blunder in naming Moses as a real person is as conspicuous as it is damning to his credibility. It doesn’t, after all, speak too highly of a witness’s authority, intelligence, competence, insight or judgment if he couldn’t distinguish the difference between inventive geopolitical myth and actual historical fact; a history he, as god, was allegedly and intimately involved in. Indeed, if Jesus’ claims are to be taken seriously then there can be zero tolerance for even minor bungles in his knowledge of any earthly event, let alone one he supposedly participated in, and yet here is an oversight so outrageous that it is the equivalent of a charismatic preacher three-hundred years from today proclaiming Batman existed. This bumbling ignorance of basic regional history exposes Jesus (if he indeed existed) to be little more than an amateurish charlatan masquerading as a supernaturally inspired magi… a naïve magician whose word was and is, by definition, thoroughly worthless.

      7. LOL Zande!
        No, it’s your colossal blunder in staking your faith and fate in the result of only 100 years of “exhaustive archaeological work…” and the writing(s) of a 21st century rabbi.
        Do you realize how odd taking such a stance is.
        You’ve used some very harsh words in your description of Jesus and His claims. My brother, who is being naïve here?

        I know first hand what can be done (and is currently been done) just through the Name of Jesus, so I can sincerely laugh at your colossal blunder and extreme naïveté and render everything you say as grossly misinformed.

        As mentioned earlier, knowledge doesn’t come into existence the moment that you stumble upon it. It was and is always there.

      8. Okay Ancients… be sure to get back to me when you have some evidence that shows Jesus didn`t bungle terribly. Until then, enjoy this recent passage from Israel’s oldest Newspaper:

        “Currently there is broad agreement among archaeologists and Bible scholars that there is no historical basis for the narratives of the Patriarchs, the Exodus from Egypt, and the conquest of Canaan, nor any archaeological evidence to make them think otherwise.”

        To repeat that last line: nor any archaeological evidence to make them think otherwise.

        Here`s Rabbi Steven Leder:

        “Defending a rabbi in the 21st century for saying the Exodus story isn’t factual is like defending him for saying the Earth isn’t flat. It’s neither new nor shocking to most of us that the Earth is round or that the Torah isn’t a history book dictated to Moses by God on Mount Sinai.”

        And just in case you don`t trust rabbis, Israeli journalists, or the world`s leading archaeologists, here`s Christianity Today`s Kevin D. Miller:

        “The fact is that not one shred of direct archaeological evidence has been found for Abraham, Isaac, or Jacob or the 400-plus years the children of Israel sojourned in Egypt. The same is true for their miraculous exodus from slavery”

        So again, when you have something to actually back your position up with, I`ll be happy to review it. Until then, you`ll just have to concede that Jesus didn`t know basic regional history.

      9. I don’t see what point you are trying to make or whether you are trying to make a point at all. Some people just like to argue for the sake of arguing.

        There are all kinds of evidence: direct, circumstantial, forensic, experiential, eyewitness testimony, logic, etc.

        Ark keeps demanding evidence but then, when someone gives it to him, he dismisses it as “emotional” and insults the giver.

        It would be like a judge silencing and ridiculing anyone on the witness stand who gives evidence that doesn’t corroborate his/her bias. No point in that.

        No point in conversing with Ark.

        No point in continuing this conversation, either.

      10. Excellent observation and points Julie. I’m happy you (another witness) have pointed this out, so succinctly and correctly.
        Those of us who have the misfortune of trying to have a conversation with these fellows have repeatedly pointed out exactly what you’ve said, with zero understanding on their part as they immediately dismiss any advice and blindly move on to continue their foolish, unfruitful method empty argumentation.

        Thanks so much for this.

      11. Curious, what evidence do you have of any of the stories contained in the Pentateurch being true? I see you offered Ark a link to Answers in Genesis, which is somewhat odd if you thought you were offering genuine information. AIG is Ken Ham’s evangelical ministry/business, not an archaeological/scientific body.

        Perhaps you`re not aware (which is fine), but the only area where there is still a live debate regarding biblical archaeology is whether or not Judah had an urban society in the 9th Century BCE, which relates to the narrative concerning the United Kingdom. That’s it. That’s all there is. The Patriarchs, Egypt, Moses, Exodus and Conquest are dead subjects in the field of serious archaeology. They were dismissed as myth over two generations ago, and nothing has changed in that time to alter this consensus. As Israel’s oldest daily Newspaper, Hareetz, announced recently:

        Currently there is broad agreement among archaeologists and Bible scholars that there is no historical basis for the narratives of the Patriarchs, the Exodus from Egypt, and the conquest of Canaan, nor any archaeological evidence to make them think otherwise.

        That last sentence is important: “Nor any archaeological evidence to make them think otherwise.”

        And just to make this point perfectly clear, in 1998, the American Schools of Oriental Research (ASOR), the primary American professional body for archaeologists working in the Middle East, changed the name of its magazine from >Biblical Archaeologist to Near Eastern Archaeology… a change made simply because the bible had been determined to be (beyond all doubt) an entirely unreliable historical source to direct research into the early Jews, pre-Babylonian captivity.

        These are just the facts. They’re not new, or controversial. In fact, the overwhelming majority of Jewish rabbi`s today openly concede that the stories contained in the Pentateuch are nothing but 7th Century BCE geopolitical fiction: historical fiction.

        As Rabbi Sherwin T. Wine so eloquently put it:

        The Jews did not begin with Abraham. The Jews did not emerge as a nation under the leadership of Moses. They were never rescued from slavery. They never stopped at Sinai.”

        And as Conservative Rabbi David Wolpe said:

        “A tradition cannot make an historical claim and then refuse to have it evaluated by history. It is not an historical claim that God created us and cares for us. That a certain number of people walked across a particular desert at a particular time in the past, after being enslaved and liberated, is an historical claim, and one cannot then cry “unfair” when historians evaluate it.”

        Well Julie, historians have evaluated it. They’ve been grading the historical credibility of the Torah and Nevi’im for over a century and the conclusions are in: the narrative is a historical fabrication; a dramatic dream sequence that bears no resemblance whatsoever to the actual early history of the Jewish people. The revealed religions are missing the supposed revelation..

      12. Zande, I’m surprised you don’t believe in the resurrection, because if there’s anyone who has demonstrated the ability to resurrect dead archaeological claims – that’s you.

      13. You appear to enjoy speaking Ancients, but you never actually offer anything to back up your claims.

        When you do, I’ll be happy to review it.

        Until then…

      14. You mean you want me to offer up a whole bunch of nonsensical archaeological conclusions and pretend that I actually know what I’m saying.

        Think of all the discoveries made within the last 300 years, and imagine if true scientists 200 years prior ( ie. 500 years ago) had your attitude. Then their conclusions would have been, the things discovered within the past 300 years do not exist and therefore undiscoverable because they searched for 100-200 years and found nothing.
        That’s nonsense.

        I hope you give serious thought to what I said – knowledge doesn’t exist the moment Zande and those of his ilk stumbles on it. The knowledge is always there. Saying it doesn’t exist because you don’t know it is unwise.

      15. Words, words, words… but nothing tangible.

        Again, when you have something to actually offer, something real, I’ll be happy to review it.

        Until then, you`ll just have to accept the consensus position of biblical scholars, archaeologists, and Jewish rabbis.

      16. LOL… you’re hilarious Zande!
        I’m laughing at your inability at simple comprehension; yet your temerity to throw insults.
        It’s fascinating, I tell you.

      17. This is one of your best comments Zande.
        Until and unless the Holy Spirit intervenes and provides a miraculous breakthrough for you it will be years before you get to that stage.

        until then…don’t put too much faith and your fate in the dubious conclusions of 21st century fools.

      18. Julie, if one claims to have a perfect and infallible account of past events, then it doesn’t matter if there is some evidence that some parts of the account are accurate. To disprove the claim, we only need one piece of evidence that shows that one part of the claim is inaccurate. Any evidence that any part of the description of past events is inaccurate is sufficient to disprove the claim of infallibility.

    1. @Julie
      This is a Creationist site. Do you have a link to something secular that actually provides verifiable evidence and does not the supernatural claims of the bible as its foundation?

      1. Wait didn’t you write, “Perhaps you could provide a link to an archaeologist who firmly believes in the biblical story of Moses, Joshua et al and who also provide archaeological evidence?” I thought you wanted evidence from an archeologist who “believes in the biblical story…”

        There are plenty of secular scientists who happen to be Christians, you might follow the link and find some.

      2. Yes, Julie evidence
        AIG is a Creationist site.
        They believe in things like Noah’s Flood being an actual event.

        Their claims have been refuted by science and archaeology from back to front and top to bottom.

        Perhaps you were unaware, that Ken Ham is responsible for AIG?
        Unless I have got the wrong site,
        I have to assume you made a genuine mistake as I have glanced over some of your posts and I can’t believe you are that credulous.

      3. Evidence would answer the doubt.
        And at least no one would deny the truth of it.
        And it still doesn’t excuse a creationist site like AIG or Creationist Ministries which are nothing but charlatans and corrupters of children.
        You should be ashamed of nonsense like this, Julie.
        It is one reason schools in many states in the US are dreadful when it comes to teaching certain aspects o science.

        Anyway, aside from you being able to produce verifiable evidence for creationist claims, a feat that would be admired throughout the scientific world and likely gain you a Nobel prize, instant global fame, and hundreds of offers of marriage, ( maybe even from me) it would not make me worship the monster you genuflect to.

  3. If the Bible says that there was no death before humans and that there was a global flood, then it’s very, very likely that the Bible is not true. The contradictory evidence in these cases is overwhelming.

    With respect to ANE archaeology, I agree with Ark that Dever is a good place to start, because I think that Dever himself was a little suprised by what the last few decades of research have shown. It’s not just the absence of evidence that’s the problem. There is also directly contradictory evidence.

    It’s not a problem of “will.” It a problem of data and observation.

    1. David,
      Do you know what the Bible means by death?
      Death means separation. When a person ‘dies physically’ they do not cease to exist. Their spirit has simply separated from their bodies.

      A back & forth about our understanding of a global flood is unfruitful, though I actually enjoy your display of knowledge, so I do promise to read what you have to say.
      Gotta go… so have a great day.

      1. I’m a little confused by your death comments. Let me try again.

        Does the Bible say that non-human animals died or experienced death in some form before the moment in time at which Adam and Eve sinned? I’m not talking about the moment at which the first human’s spirt separated from their body. I’m talking about the moment when the first sin was commited.

        Why would a back and forth about the flood be unfruitful?

        I’ll check later. No hurry.

      2. David, the first death I’m aware of is God using the skin of an animal to clothe Adam & Eve after they allowed themselves to be deceived.

        I’m not sure if you’re aware of this but the Garden of Eden is not in this earth realm.
        We’re told God formed man from the dust of the ground (cosmos – Proverbs) then He took the man He had formed and placed him in Eden.
        How long Adam was there and what was taking place in the earth realm during that time is not stated.
        It was after their deception, when their spirits became separated from God and their natures changed that they were sent back to the earth. (just information)

      3. So Eden was not on the surface of the Earth? Adam and Eve arrived on Earth after they were created elsewhere? How did you come to this conclusion? Is this in the Bible?

        Regardless, can we say that the Bible says that the first deaths only occur after the appearance of humans on Earth, however and whenever the humans arrived here? Were animals dying before Adam and Eve entered the earthly realm and committed the first sin?

        Don’t want to talk about global floods? If I was you, I’d duck this one, too.

      4. David, I got this directly from scripture -(you know: the one atheists claim to read and understand; and further claim it’s their great understanding of said Scripture that has caused them to turn away from Almighty God.)

        Genesis 2: then the Lord God formed the man of dust from the ground and breathed into his nostrils the breath of life, and the man became a living creature. And the Lord God planted a garden in Eden, in the east, and there he put the man whom he had formed. And out of the ground the Lord God made to spring up every tree..

        LOL at your perceived knowledge of the flood.
        The reason I do not want to speak about it is that I know you do not have more/less evidence than I do… and neither do the “experts”.
        Like everything else, each individual decides which interpretation of the evidence they will believe.
        So the bottom line is: you believe your source, and I believe mine. It’s really that simple…nothing to duck.
        You fail to understand the nature of all our existences. Every single person is free to believe what he chooses. However there can only be one truth.

      5. I’m familiar with Genesis 2. Where does it say that Eden was anywhere other than the obvious place. On Earth. Why make a reference to “the east” if Eden is somewhere other than Earth? What in Genesis 2 gives any hint that Eden is any place other than Earth?

        With respect to the Flood, yes, we both have access to the data. So, let’s talk about that data. You wish to wave you hands and talk about “interpretations,” but you seem reluctant to talk about the data themselves.

        When you say, “it’s all about interpretation,” then you are saying that no one can know anything. Certainly, if you begin with the “interpretation,” then you are saying that there is no “truth.” Do you really want to make this argument?

        When a YECer goes nuclear, and starts to make relativistic arguments about how it’s all a matter of opinion, then I know that they know that the data are against them. It’s like the old lawyer joke that starts with…”if the evidence is on you side, pound the evidence”…and ends with…”if nothing is on you side, pound the table.”

        Finally, I’m still looking for an answer to the question about when deaths first occurred on Earth. Would this be before or after A ans E’s arrival on Earth?

      6. First, it states the man Adam was formed from the ground when the ground was almost empty of life. At this early stage of earth’s development, we are told that plants had not appeared on earth.

        After he was formed, man [Adam] was taken (from one place- the ground) and placed in Eden (another place- a planted garden). Vs 5 gives the reason for this.

        Later, we’re told “therefore, the Lord God sent him out from the garden… to till the ground from which he was taken”… clearly implies Eden is a different realm from the earth realm.

        Regarding data – data do not say anything as data cannot interpret themselves. It requires a human mind to interpret data. It’s the human who does the “saying” – you know –

        David: When a YECer goes nuclear…”
        It behooves you to know who you’re having a discussion with.
        Making up and applying labels to someone you have no clue about is not very wise.
        It’s been a long time since I’ve been angry with anyone online, much more to go nuclear 🙂
        Thanks for the smile and the lol though.

        Here’s a brilliant piece of wisdom I’ve gotten from this wonderful book: “Do not be [h]eager in your heart to be angry, For anger resides in the bosom of fools.”

        Finally, as someone who claims to know Scripture, all you have to do is take a look at what it says.

        Second, God sent them out from Eden back to work the ground from which they were taken… and cherubim and a flaming sword were placed to protect the

      7. I appreciate your efforts to point out the contradictions between the two creation stories in Genesis (in the second account, Adam is formed before plants are created). Thank you for that.

        The later verse in Genesis 2 clearly places Eden on Earth when the describe the rivers flowing out of Eden as including the Tigris and Euphrates. Yes, Eden is a seperate place from where Adam ended up, but I see no indication in the passages in question that the authors of the story held the position that Eden was on another planet.

        Regardless, again, we still have the question of when deaths first occurred on Earth. Is this before or after the arrival of A and E? What does the Bible tell us about this? Or would you prefer to duck this question, too?

        I think you misunderstood my use of the phrase “going nuclear.” I was not at all suggesting that you were angry.

        This phrase was in reference to the “interpretation gambit,” a strategy that allows the user to avoid discussing the data which contradicts his position, but which also leads to the conclusion that no one can know anything. Everything is just opinion, and one opinion is as good as any other, everyone interprets data in their own way, so no one can say that they know what is true. Do you really wish to use this argument?

        And just to sure that I haven’t misunderstood you on other matters, do you believe that the Bible says that the Earth was covered by a global flood during a period of time when humans were present on the planet?

      8. David, this is a very disingenuous sentence, especially, since I am using the Biblical narrative. So stating that I am pointing out contradictions is flat wrong unless you’re confused as to what the scripture actually says.

        You’re correct in saying a river went out of Eden but look what it says: The river went out of Eden to water the garden; and from there it was parted and became into 4 heads.

        Why did this 1 stream split into 4 David?
        These are the questions you should be asking.

        David, if you believe you have a point to be made regarding when death first appeared on the earth please go ahead and make it, along with anything else you’d like to unburden. Thanks.

        Just to be clear, I believe there in absolute truth; so I do not believe we cannot know the truth. Of course we can.
        “Everything is just opinion, and one opinion is as good as any other…” This is your religion- secularism/materialism/atheism.
        So no, that’s not the argument I’m using at all.

      9. My “disingenuous” was meant tongue-in-cheek, I didn’t mean that I thought thT you were deliberately pointing out contradictions. My apologies for not making this clearer.

        However, the contradictions are real. In the second creation story, Adam is created before other life forms. In the first story, humans are last.

        Does it really matter if the river split into four rivers? Is the Tigris an earthly river? So, where was Eden located?

        Point is, death occurred on Earth long, long, long before any humans had any opportunity to sin.

        Yes, you are indeed arguing that we cannot know “truth.” That’s the logical conclusion of the “interpretation gambit.” We all have the same data, but we interpret the data and draw our conclusions using our individual, flawed and subjective minds.

        So, who’s conclusion about, say, past events is correct? Who knows, because we each have our own individual interpretatin of the data. Is anyone’s conclusion correct? Who knows? There’s no way to tell. You believe one thing, I believe another. We each have our own subjective opinions, and one person’s conclusion is as good as the next.

        This is where you end up with the “interpretation gambit”…which you wouldn’t need to use if the evidence actually supported you position with respect to floods, etc.

      10. I want to sincerely commend you on your great observation of the creation narrative.
        I would implore you to slow down, and think deeply about why things are presented the way they are instead of jumping to the lazy conclusion of “contradiction”… after all, you want to be regarded as a serious scientific person.

        Here’s a n explanation for your observation.

        1] Genesis 1:27 So God [Elohim] created man in his own image, in the image of God created he him; male and female created he them.

        So above we see that man (or the men and women) created in the image of God must have been spirits because they were created in the very image of Elohim. John 4:24 God is a Spirit: and they that worship him must worship him in spirit and in truth.

        Elohim here is plural – referring to the male and female attributes of God (Elohim) ↔ [Yahweh El Shaddai].

        But what about Adam and thus our present dwelling in the earth realm?

        [2] Genesis 2:7 And the LORD God formed man of the dust of the ground, and breathed into his nostrils the breath of life; and man became a living soul.
        {as you might have noticed but perhaps over looked, the first spirits were created, Adam was formed}

        Dayspring From on High:
        “It seems that there were two levels of activity. There was a creation (Genesis chapter 1) that was in the image of Elohim (male and female) first. This creation seemed to exist as being but yet not “in the earth”. Then at a latter point (Gen chap 2), a “forming” – not a creation – took place. It was not necessarily in the exact image of Elohim. In the second level (Adam), there were three elements added:

        (1) a soul

        (2) a tree of choosing between good and evil

        (3) a body of dust.

        The reality is David, I’m more inclined to discuss the uncomfortable with regards to the spiritual realm and its influences on the physical realm.

        A back and forth regarding the flood, the existence of Moses, Noah, Jesus etc. These realities are already settled for me, and I’ve long moved past them.
        For me, this is an unquestionable reality, because I am absolutely aware of the realities of the spirit world.

      11. Ah, the spirit world, a place where anything can be as you imagine it to be. And then there’s theology, a way of thinking in which the words can mean anything you want them to mean. So much easier than, say, doing science.

        I can see why you would prefer these things to a discussion of data and observations of the physical world. The physical world is such an inconvenient and uncomfortable place. No doubt you do not wish to discuss the evidence, because in the physical world, the data and observations show that it is very, very, very unlikely that there was a global flood. No doubt you’d rather move past the data, observations and evidence, because you clearly understand where an examination of these things will lead. Yes, better to play it safe.

        Well, as we’ve learned, you have your opinion and I have mine. And “truth” is nowhere in site.

      12. David, your sarcasm is duly noted.

        If you read slower and more carefully, I said as it pertains to the physical realm.

        There’s nothing to play safe. You want a fruitless back and forth of dueling “expert” interpretation of data. Been there, done that, don’t have the time to waste. It’s that simple.

        I LOL at your “easier than doing science” comment. Surely, even you should know the limitations of science.

        Yes, as we’ve all learnt, every single individual has their own opinion (that’s what makes us unique David)… and those who have Christ possesses the Truth.

        In case you missed it the first time: Truth is a person. You want truth, you go to the One who possesses it.

      13. So, we all have our opinions…but your opinion is the Truth. Everyone has their own subjection interpretation. But you have the Truth. You don’t see the problem with this? Of course not. You have the Truth.

        I’m not looking for “dueling experts.” I’m looking for a conversation between you and me about observations that anyone can make. We don’t need experts, the data are available to anyone, even us non-experts. I think such a conversation could be quite fruitful.

        But I see that you prefer to just declare that you have the Truth, no questions allowed. As I said, when the evidence is against you, pound the table. So, pound away.

  4. Ark.

    You raise some interesting points. It’s true that we have little evidence on the exodus story. This is not to say supporting evidence has not been found. However at this stage I agree with you – the exodus story cannot be said as without a doubt having happened, based off archaeological findings. Unfortunately you possess a major flaw in your labelling the exodus story as a “myth.”Simply because solid evidence hasn’t completely confirmed the story yet, this does not give any right to label ANY event in history a myth. Until there is contradictory evidence, it simply cannot be labelled a myth. The exodus story is simply an unsupported event archaeologically at this stage in time – nothing more or less. Don’t get me wrong – I agree with you that there is not solid evidence for the exodus story. But just as we cannot find reason enough to label the exodus as a definite occurrence, so too we cannot find enough reason to label it as a definite myth. It has middle ground status.

    However, I was intrigued by your comments on Jesus. This is where I hope you’ll respond into. Jesus You have stated that there is no verifiable evidence for the claimed divinity for Jesus. And correct me if I’m wrong, but you also believe there is no contemporary evidence for Jesus’ existence in the first place.

    First question: What evidence would convince you of the divinity of Jesus?
    Second question: Do you believe there is no proper evidence for Jesus’ existence?

    Ark, I appreciate that you’re one who is willing to question things. I share a strong bond with people that ask hard hitting questions. Keep asking them mate. Appreciate that we can take these issues to a public forum.

    Bless you mate,

    Jonathan.

  5. You raise some interesting points. It’s true that we have little evidence on the exodus story. This is not to say supporting evidence has not been found.

    I accept I have not read everything, (who has?) obviously, but I have read a bit and to date I have not read of any supporting evidence for the Exodus as described in the bible.
    I discount people like Kitchen who may be extremely good at certain areas of archaeology, some consider him an expert even, but he is an Evangelical Christian and thus, when it comes to the Exodus or anything related to this he is simply an Apologetic Halfwit, putting faith before reason and evidence.

    Most of those ”in the know” ( for want of a better term) consider the entire episode a Foundational myth; a geopolitical piece of narrative fiction as a matter of fact, likely constructed during the Babylonian captivity.
    This is the view of pretty much everyone I have read from Dever to Wolpe.
    While there are minimalists and maximalists, there really is no ”middle ground” for the biblical tale. It is simply nonsense, in a ”manna” of speaking.
    Unless by middle ground you are suggesting a few Hebrews did a bunk during the night from Egypt and ended up in Canaan after sneaking cross-country for a few weeks?

    However, that said you sound confident there is evidence, so please provide a link to a recognized, peer-reviewed archaeological website or archaeologist.

    First question: What evidence would convince you of the divinity of Jesus?

    Ah, here we go! I just knew you had one these lurking n the background.:)
    I love these type of questions. Truly. No sarcasm intended. I think they are marvelous, as they illuminate so much about the one asking the question more so than the person being asked, don’t you think so?
    I am an atheist. I have read and done a bit of study over the years. However, I am always open to evidence.
    So, the much better question is: What convinced you? If it was good enough, maybe it will convince me?
    Tell me your story.

    Second question: Do you believe there is no proper evidence for Jesus’ existence?

    Personal beliefs aside for a moment. There may very well have been a smelly little first century eschatological Rabbi named Yeshua running around preaching an alternative Messianic Message to what resident Jews wanted to hear,who got himself nailed to a tree by the Romans for being an almighty pain-in-the-arse. Who knows? Not me for sure! Josephus mentions a few Jesuses, doesn’t he? How many was it? A baker’s dozen or so, I seem to recall. Something like that.

    But if you are asking after the veracity of the biblical character, the Lake Tiberius Pedestrian and viniculturist’s best friend, Jesus of Nazareth Nowhere?
    Well, what do you think my answer is? Honestly.

    Thanks.

  6. David
    You have a video of the resurrection of Jesus?
    theancients says:
    June 22, 2016 at 7:56 PM
    Of course not!
    And that’s the whole point and the beauty of how God has set up this whole system: we’re provided with enough evidence, and it’s up to each individual to weigh the evidence presented to them and to decide whether or not they believe it.

    Then please inform us exactly what is this evidence you are referring to?

    1. I’m referring to all the evidences given in the Biblical record, all the evidences given in nature; and the intuitive knowledge of God that every human being is born with.

      You’re looking to someone to convince you… that’s not how it works.

      1. Something convinced you, so why would it not convince me?

        Why don’t you stop behaving like an arrogant, smug SOB for five minutes, try to understand how and why atheists think the way they do and share your knowledge?

        You claim, ”that’s not how it works”, then explain just how it does work.

      2. We’re all unique individuals Ark (our thought processes is one of the major contributors to this uniqueness. You’ll never find 2 people who think exactly alike)… so what works for me certainly will not work for you.

        It’s easy to ignore your attempt at insult because you’re so easily led by whatever spirit pops up.

        A man who controls his anger Ark, is greater and more honorable than a mighty soldier that can take a city.

        Your brain is subjected to [or the slave of] your mind, never the other way round; and as such you are in full control of your reactions to any issue.

      3. And yet another hand-waving, dismissive reply that says absolutely nothing but in fact admits an awful lot.
        Considerably more than you realise, in fact.
        Every indoctrinated Christian I have ever interacted with eventually responds in this manner.

        You simply cannot behave in a fashion that is able to deal with answer criticism in an open honest manner.

        If you were truly honest you would begin by stating openly your case, based on what you believe is the starting point – ground zero, if you like.
        Then develop your argument from here.
        However, I suspect this would mean divulging your testimony and this
        would mean a departure from all the evidence you claim backs your worldview. It would be an encounter type experience based on some emotional issue.

        This anger you claim I have – justified to some extent I’ll grant you – is because of the heinous crime that is religion and the blanket of ignorance it covers humanity in.

        That you are unable to see, or understand this fact is a measure of just how insidious and successful religious indoctrination is.

        Look around you, for goodness’ sake! Look at the wars fought over religious issues – tacitly or openly.
        That alone should give any honest person pause to consider.

        But I wonder just how honest you truly are?
        That you continue to indulge in semantics suggests not that honest, if truth be told.

        But your comments, like mine remain for lurkers and visitors alike to read.
        Unless you delete the post – which is your prerogative, of course, and they will be the judge.
        One can but hope the more thoughtful, more introspective reader will go away and do a little research and ask the questions I have asked of you and Julie and have so far refused to answer.

        Honesty? No, I don’t believe you truly understand the concept.

      4. That’s okay Ark.
        A rational mind can judge for itself who is confused.

        It’s a strange thing when a mature person cannot see that their question was indeed answered. That is what speaks volumes Ark.

        If you haven’t noticed already, I do not delete posts or comments [I deleted 1 comment of yours from a previous post, but only because of the expletive you could not control your self in including].

      5. You have not offered a direct honest answer to a singe question, merely offered apologetic replies, and this after denigrating my post without offering a single evidence-backed refutation.
        That, is simply being disingenuous.

        So, no, you have neither demonstrated honesty or integrity.

        If you wish to have another go, maybe you can surprise me?

        Example:
        What evidence do you have that refutes the position of almost the entire archaeological community regarding the fact the Pentateuch is historical fiction and the Exodus story as descried n the bible is nothing but a foundational myth?

        Here’s your golden chance to demonstrate your evidence and your honesty.
        Your call …

  7. Yes, so can we please talk about the evidence instead of complaining that Ark does not have a video from the Bronze Age?

    And remember, all faiths have “evidence for.” And yet you reject Faith’s other than your own. So, maybe we should be focusing on “evidence against.”

    It seems to me that the basic question here is how can we draw conclusions about what has happened in the past? Any suggestions?

    1. Listen, you guys are the ones hung up on “evidence”… so if you want to talk about the evidence… be my guest, go ahead and talk about your evidence to your hearts content.

      Well, of course I reject other belief systems that espouse any other way to God other than through Christ Jesus. That’s my prerogative, and yours and theirs as well. I do not deny the existence of other belief systems; however based on my knowledge, Jesus Christ is the Son of the Most High God, and I can only access the Father through Him.

      This is what I believe; if you don’t share this belief, that’s your business.

      Again, you’re the one with “supposed evidence against Christianity and the Biblical record” so here’s your opportunity.
      Don’t expect to write: “If the Bible says that there was no death before humans and that there was a global flood, then it’s very, very likely that the Bible is not true. The contradictory evidence in these cases is overwhelming.”
      The above sentences say absolutely nothing, so do not expect me to come blazing with “secular scientific evidence” to refute the non-entity you’ve posted.

      You spell out the contradictions if you want…just don’t expect to declare there are contradictions with nothing to support that statement and believe you’re having a rational discussion.

      Your last question is a good one.
      My answer is simply this: no one throws away their car manufacturer’s handbook, then go on the internet and to other people to provide them with speculations on the proper use of the vehicle.
      The more rational and wise thing to do is to use the book the manufacturer provided you. That’s basic common sense.

      1. So, the science of geology is a “non-entity?”

        Ok, let’s get specific. Why are the remains of modern species only found in the top layers of fossil deposits?

        Your hypothesis that you have the “the book the manufacturer provided you” is, in fact, just an hypothesis. It is the hypothesis that we are trying to test here. The hypothesis could be true or it could be incorrect.

        So, let’s test it, shall we? Otherwise, your answer is of no value.

        Other faiths have their books as well. Why not these books instead of your book? Since it’s all just a matter of personal opinion, I say we let the Mormons tell us what happened in the past.

      2. First, let me re-emphasize what I later added (as I was trying to keep my comment short).

        Truth is absolute! It is independent of our opinion. Truth doesn’t choose sides, so truth cannot choose my side, neither can it choose yours.
        We, however as individuals can choose to be on the side of truth.

        It is not a hypothesis or a question of whether Jesus Christ is the Son of God.
        As I always say, to deny God exists, is to deny Jesus exists.
        I have no desire to get into a back & forth as to whether or not you believe Jesus existed and why you don’t. That’s your issue to resolve.

        The record is clear, however, you want to muddy it up to make yourself seem like a thoughtful doubter (agnostic-who has no choice but to live a life of perpetual skepticism), or worst yet an unwise know-it-all (atheist- who has no choice but to pretend he knows everything in order to claim the non-existence of God).

        There is not one single person on this earth who knows and can tell you where he comes from unless they’re told so by their Creator.
        And He has done just that…but those who are wise only in their own eyes choose to discard this information in favor of silly speculation.

        Science is simply a method of discovery. It is not anti-Creator/God. It’s God who has blessed us with the ability to search/seek and discover. It is He who has given us the ability to reason.

        When you’ve stumbled upon information and knowledge regarding how God does things – you did not create this knowledge. It was always there, now is when you’ve stumbled upon it. It would behoove you to keep this foremost in your mind.

        It certainly expected you to know the significant differences between Christianity and every other religion/system.
        1. No other religion has a Savior.
        2. Other religions is man through much effort trying to reach God. Christianity is God through His love of mankind reaching down to man.
        3.Christianity believes the Word of God [Christ Jesus] is the Truth. Scripture also being the written word of God is truth. Proved by Jesus {God in the physical] who quoted from Scripture again and again.

        It’s of no consequence to me if my answer is of no value to you.
        Once again, truth is independent, and remains the truth whether you or I choose to value it.

      3. First, quickly, all faiths have their unique characteristics, so pointing a unique trait of Christianity is not of much value.

        Now, you suggested that I posted a “non-entity.” So I gave you an “entity.” Modern species are only found in the uppermost fossil deposits.

        Your response? Well, you just jumped up and down and declared that you have the truth. No actual examination of data, just a failure to respond to my “entity.”

        Can’t you see that by your own words, you’ve already declared that all anyone has is just their opinion? We all have the same evidence, but we have to interpret that evidence. These are your words. This position allows you to reject the conclusions of modern geology, so you must cling to this position.

        But “interpretation” is a product of flawed, individual, subjective minds. So, our conclusions are just flawed, subjective opinions, and we don’t have any absolute truths. You have your opinion, and I have mine. One opinion is as good as any other. If you think about this for just a minute, you’ll see that this is the inevitable outcome when one uses the “interpretation gambit.”

        For example, the Bible is a actually just an observable data set. So, you interpret it your way, and I interpret it my way, and if you’ll pardon the expression, God only knows what it actually means or which parts are accurate and which are not. It’s just a matter of opinion.

      4. Pointing out the unique characteristics of Christianity is of value to those who are genuinely seeking truth and not an empty argument.

        This is my response to fossil record entry: https://answersingenesis.org/fossils/fossil-record/the-fossil-record-1/

        You can read it and have a back and forth debate with those who have studied geology.
        As I’ve said, I have zero interest in a debate on whose interpretation of the record is more acceptable.

        You seem incapable of understanding this very simple concept – geology says nothing… geologists do.
        I am not telling you what to believe. I have access to the exact information that you do… so your incessant desire to have me see things your way is simply proselytizing for your godless religion.
        NO THANK YOU. I already have a God.

      5. Oh, and yes, the statement that Jesus is the Son of God is just another hypothesis.

        You’ve drawn this conclusion based an ancient text, and nothing more, and this conclusion is just a subjective opinion. It is also a subjective opinion that the text accurately describes actual events. Remember, as you said, we all have the same evidence, and my conclusions are as good as yours.

        So, what we really need to do here is test the hypotheses.

      6. Well you can call it whatever you want, that doesn’t change the truth of exactly what it is. The absolute truth.

        Christ Jesus is the Son of God = Incontestable Truth

        Yes, I get it, you’re here contesting it, but you’re only bashing yourself against a wall.

        It’s your hypotheses… knock yourself out.

      7. I thought that you said in early exchange on another post that you agree that the Bible should be tested. I see that you have retreated from this previous position.

      8. I did, yes.
        However, when those who claim they’re testing scripture and cannot even acknowledge this universe is not one dimensional – ie. all is not physical, then what exactly are they testing.
        That’s like a bird with only one functioning wing. It’s totally grounded.
        So forgive my lack of enthusiasm for a pretentious, pseudo-scientific discussion.

      9. With respect to you link…it doesn’t answer the question.

        Why are modern species only found in the uppermost layers?

        We don’t need any experts here. This is a question that anyone can answer, however, I understand your desire to duck it. Try thinking for yourself.

      10. With that lovely insult, perhaps you could shed light on exactly who has been thinking for me, for all these years.

      11. You say that you can think for yourself. Excellent. So, let’s discuss things. Let’s think about things. Just you and me.

        By the way, it would take me a week to list all of the deceptions and omissions in that AiG link. One of the sad things about fundamentalism is that it forces its more knowledgable practioners to behavior in a clearly deceptive wars.

        Ok, so you still say we should test the Bible. Very good. Next question. Given that you find my methods pretentious, how do you propose that we test the Bible? If it happens that the Bible is wrong, how can we tell? What methods would you accept?

  8. …however based on my knowledge, Jesus Christ is the Son of the Most High God, and I can only access the Father through Him.

    You wrote an entire post deriding what I had written and yet to date have offered nothing to refute any of it.
    I have offered examples of experts in their fields that have evidence that is contrary to the biblical tale and for this you once again, offer nothing.
    You claim truth, yet espouse nothing but rhetoric and unsubstantiated polemic.
    Your bible commands you to defend your faith with evidence yet all you come across as is a smug, condescending blowhard.

    Your god decries hypocrites so why are you behaving like one?
    To use a colloquial phrase, it’s time for you ”to put up or push off”.

    If you have nothing but faith then at least have the integrity to state this.

  9. Great post. Check out my current and upcoming political and theological posts! Follow for follow. Share anything you like to increase the following and viewership. Thanks. I look forward to your future posts!

  10. Wonderful! I am thankful that many of us band together and write to reach many many people. If I may encourage anyone to please visit my official website ministry. I m looking to really engage with other writers so that we can share each others thoughts and facts we find in our journey to awaken the masses. Please do share and follow @ https://godheaddisciple.org/ I can assure you, you will leave blessed. Thank you again for your time and devotion to serve the Lord Jesus Christ!!

    Daniel Byzewski
    God Head Disciple Ministry

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