Logic, You Say

Logos –

Word Origin [Greek]: word, reason, discourse, from legein to speak

1. Philosophy. the rational principle that governs and develops the universe.

2. Theology. the divine word or reason incarnate in Jesus Christ. John 1:1–14.

(philosophy) reason or the rational principle expressed in words and things, argument, or justification; esp personified as the source of order in the universe

  In the beginning the Word [logos, indwelling logic, reason] already existed. The Word was with God, and the Word was God.

“To the curious, the inquisitive, the seekers of knowledge… who care less about labels and more about truth… because in the eternal debate for answers, the one thing is true – The Power of Logic.”

The above quote, taken from an advertisement for “atheism” is mostly true because every human being (not just an atheist) is innately curious, inquisitive and seeks after knowledge. Call it an intuitive need to express what the Creator has placed inside all of us – that which may be known of God is manifest in us.

We’re told to seek first after God and His way of doing things. One has to be curious, inquisitive in order to seek, and God rewards those who diligently seek Him. Some of these rewards  are increased knowledge, understanding, and wisdom.

The Apostle John tells us that eternal life is knowing God. Knowledge is a process of curiosity, seeking, discovering, understanding. There is no person who can exhaust the depths of knowing who God IS. Impossible. God is infinite.

Oddly though, the ad ends with: “We go one God further.           Atheism”.

Huh? What? Seriously, what does this even mean?

Most atheists would argue to their last breath that atheism is not a belief system.  Well how do they take themselves or expect anyone to take them seriously if, even they do not believe nor have faith in what they espouse.

The ‘non-belief’ of atheism has led them to take the very definite action of producing an ad (to spread the logical gospel of atheism?), because as every “non-believer” knows, non-belief always leads to action. Of course not!

Yet, they seek to speak of the power of logic.

 If I go up to a vending machine and do not believe I’ll get anything for the money I put in, I will not take the positive action of placing my money in the machine. My action/inaction is based entirely upon my belief/faith/trust in the reliability of the machine. That’s logic.

Refraining from going further, I’ll just quote a more reasoned and logical mind, that of Mr. Chesterton: I do not feel any contempt for an atheist, who is often a man limited and constrained by his own logic to a very sad simplification.

Who or what is the source of this Power of Logic?

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81 thoughts on “Logic, You Say”

      1. I await eagerly. But do have a question in advance of their arrival. If there is no belief system why do they all say the same things over and over?

      2. 🙂 ahhh, great question indeed, and therein lies the “power of their logic”… the superficial.

  1. Well said. I am always impressed by the number of scientists, some who are not even believers, who have said atheism is not only illogical, it is unscientific. To be open minded, seeking answers, scientific and logical, one must suspend disbelief, not convert it into an entire ideology. One can be agnostic and claim to not know, but to be an atheist is to declare that you have now proven an unknown.

    If the Wright brothers had simply said, I refuse to believe human beings can fly, that would have been the end of it. If Einstein had said, I see no evidence of the theory of relativity therefore it does not exist, he wouldn’t have been much of a mathematician, would he?

    1. Brilliant, Ms. IB!
      Great take away, I will be quoting in the future: “To be open minded, seeking answers, scientific and logical, one must suspend DISBELIEF, not convert it into an entire ideology.”

      Also love: to be an atheist is to declare that you have now proven an unknown.
      Proving “somehow one can never manage to be an atheist.”

      Thanks so much for your insights.

      1. “Suspend disbelief”?

        That implies, willful ignorance, something I am sure is not intended as it is aimed not at me…but… 🙂

        OK, let’s be clear.

        If you do not believe in something…that is it:you do not believe in it.

        So, what is the confusion over? Let me give you another example:

        You do not believe…nor do the super-majority of followers of Christ…that Mohamed rode a winged horse to heaven and split the moon.

        You choose to disbelieve it. You do not have to form an “Anti-Islam” religion…(you can rely on Donald Trump to do that for you)…you do not believe in Islam. You are a non-believer.

        In doing so, choosing to not believe in Islam, welcome to the world of being an atheist. You do not believe in Islam. As it applies to Islam…you’re an atheist. (And, be careful saying so, they seem to be sensitive and do not take too kindly to being told their religion is wrong and yours is right…)

        Do you believe in Mormonism? Judaism? Scientology? How about Methodists? Catholics? Presbyterians? Are they right…or wrong?

        Do you believe every domination calling themselves “Christian” are all going to occupy “heaven”?

        Or, are some excluded…they are “wrong”…a religion you do not believe is legit? Again, you’re a non-believer.

        Those are real questions…I would like to hear one of you answer. You took the time to poke your seemingly fun, finger of judgment at people who don’t agree with you. Now….your turn to answer.

        Just which one of your “faiths” is right…or are they all right?

        And, you scoff because I choose to not believe? That is funny. Just answer the last question…that will keep it simple.

        Because someone chooses to disbelieve myths originating during a time people believed in a flat earth (and burned people at the stake who differed) let’s be clear: what you disbelieve does not require a religion or even what you refer to as an ideology.

        I do not believe in your Bible…in your Yahweh…in the “Trinity” and the character of Satan, the “place” hell, and the entire Adam & Eve to Revelation fiction that you are placing your faith…and basing your judgment of others different than you.

        I do not believe in Santa Claus either…no more than I do in the Satan character. I disbelieve in both. Ideology? I would call it “reason” — you can call it a lack of faith and you would be right. I have no faith in the myth(s)…either of them. And, Santa sounds better, doesn’t it?

        I am not flying a flag of “atheism”–in fact the video you linked from my blog to was more of a poke of fun at those who made it. Read the comments…

        I am simply a “non-believer” I do not believe in “atheism” as a religion no more than I do in Islam, Christianity or Judaism…atheism is non-belief.

        So, in that regard, I am an atheist toward what you call the ideology and religion of atheism. 🙂 (laughing out loud)

        I hope that helps.

        Waging peace…I look forward to hearing answer to the one specific question I posed…your turn. I am wondering…can all of you agree on the answer?

      2. If you do not believe in something…that is it:you do not believe in it.
        So, what is the confusion over?

        Do you even realize that without God, it’s impossible to be an atheist?

        The confusion is on the part of atheists who just cannot seem to understand their belief-system [or non-belief system as you may call it].
        If an atheist does not believe God exists, then he does not write daily posts about a non-existent God. If atheism is not a belief system, there is no need to make an ad touting the ‘virtues’ of being an atheist; otherwise, you’re doing things you don’t believe.

        Do you believe in Mormonism? Judaism? Scientology? How about Methodists? Catholics? Presbyterians? Are they right…or wrong?

        I do not deny the existence of Mormonism, Scientology; however, I do not subscribe to their belief-system.

        Do you believe every domination calling themselves “Christian” are all going to occupy “heaven”?

        Denominations do not go to heaven.
        Eternal life doesn’t begin when a person dies. Eternal life begins now – it is knowing the One True God, & His Son Christ Jesus who willingly gave Himself to redeem us.

        Just which one of your “faiths” is right…or are they all right?
        The only path is through Christ Jesus. No one else knows the way back to the Father.

        I disbelieve in both. Ideology? I would call it “reason” — you can call it a lack of faith and you would be right. I have no faith in the myth(s)…either of them. And, Santa sounds better, doesn’t it?

        Reason – one reasons with their mind. The mind is a creation of the Creator. It was He who said ‘come, let us reason together’; all our discoveries are based on our ability to reason. Reason & faith are not incompatible. If you’ve demonstrated reasons for me/anyone else to have faith or trust in you, then you have it. So in reality, placing faith in someone is based on characteristics you’ve reasoned in your mind that they possess and you therefore deem them worthy of your trust/faith.

        I am simply a “non-believer” I do not believe in “atheism” as a religion no more than I do in Islam, Christianity or Judaism…atheism is non-belief.

        If atheism is non-belief, you’d have nothing to speak of and nothing to spread, no atheist gathering on blogs to speak incessantly about a God all the gatherers agree does not exist. What’s the point of identifying yourself as an atheist; no one goes around identifying themselves as a non-believer in Santa Claus, Flying Spaghetti Monsters… so, what’s the purpose of identifying as an atheist, if not to tout what you believe.
        In the words of one of your new-age priests C.H. “our belief is not a belief” … that’s atheism for you.

        I look forward to hearing answer to the one specific question I posed…your turn. I am wondering…can all of you agree on the answer?

        If you can find just 2 atheists or any other 2 individuals in the whole world who agree on everything, you’ve got your answer. It’s called being an individual (no two people think exactly the same way).
        Christians believe and agree on the fundamentals:
        Jesus Christ is Lord and Savior
        He died on the cross for our sins. He rose from the dead on the 3rd day.

        Similarly, atheists believe and agree on the fundamental: there is no God or at least they deny there is one.

      3. Cam,

        In all absolute sincerity and honesty, this is simply going round and round.

        But, if you want to really know why I am choosing to challenge religious bloggers and others, I have a problem with religious indoctrination.

        Do you have children? If you do, please take 2-3 minutes and read the rest…objectively and with some effort to be open-minded…ok?

        For Christians, teaching little children about “hell” and the “devil”, regardless of the faithful goodhearted and/or disciplinary intention(s) causes real problems and issues for children.

        Teaching the theory…the concept…of “hell” and the “devil” is a form of child abuse.

        It is.

        Trying to scare a kid “straight” with threats of a sinister, invisible “person” who is the causal force for all bad things–all of this when a child is a “child”-leaves deep emotional scars.

        It does.

        If you want the proof I’ll email it if you want to spend the time and read scientific, factual evidence of the emotional scars teachings like “hell” and the “devil” create in impressionable, trusting children.

        The same applies for many religious beliefs: the oppression of women–primarily by Islam–but not completely alien to Christianity. Wearing “proper” clothing, deference and submission to husbands in the absolute and again the message that “as a woman you are the lesser” is not something any parent should consider as beneficial to children…male and female.

        Tell me women being taught and perceived as lesser than men has brought about ANY real good in the world. Oppression of women is a causal force for incredible abuse to women, individually and as a gender.

        How about science? The religious rebuke of science leads to people saying the universe is 5,000 years old and evolution is faux theory. That type of thinking hinders intellectual growth, curiosity and…

        Skepticism.

        Being skeptical is not such a bad thing…is it? Asking questions is the path to learning and growth–not simply being “fed” beliefs and information. Testing, questioning…being skeptical…wanting “proof” and evidence is not a knock on religion…it is part of our growth…and life.

        If people are afraid of questions, they do as you and Wally and others have and continue to react: you deflect and then you consider the QUESTION and ACCUSATION.

        Questions are not accusations…only if a person “feels” like the answer reflects poorly on their beliefs and perspectives, or if they KNOW the answer is lackluster, lacking anything other than the air it takes to say it or the physical dexterity to type it.

        Questions should be encouraged!

        What is wrong with skepticism?

        I quote often from a Christian pastor, a person I believe is sincere in his beliefs (even if I disagree with him on many) He said: “A faith that can’t be tested is a faith that can’t be trusted. A faith that cannot tolerate questioning is a faith without answers.”

        Based on the Bible, Jesus was tested…and he tested the religious order of the day. I am not aware Jesus ever “running” from a question. At a minimum, he kept silent (Pilate) But, for the most part, he was challenging the RELIGIOUS ORDER of his time…he was being SKEPTICAL.

        Your own Savior asked the Pharisees, the know-it-all, top of the heap religious leaders QUESTIONS.

        Listen again…He asked questions!

        How did they respond?

        Much like you…like Wally…like Becky…and others.

        Deflect…reject…accuse.

        I’m just glad you folks do not have crucifixion as an option…your anger is palpable. Wally basically used Scripture to call me “swine”…”unholy” Yes, that’s his prerogative, but why?

        Because I asked him a question…on his own encouragement (he has a blog–read the comments, content–I do not think he is writing, or you, to simply hear themselves only?)

        So, based on the Bible, Jesus would appear to encourage questioning…and responding to challenges. True…False ?

        The testing Jesus endured, as the pastor suggested in the present day for all Christians to “test”, isn’t limited to sin…guilt…pain of life as the only “tests” He explained the reality of faith: faith is built on DOUBT.

        You can’t prove it…but you “believe” it and put faith in those beliefs–even without proof. What did Jesus say to Thomas? Using your own book…it is all about belief in what you can’t see and prove. “Faith” built on …. ever-present doubt.

        On the issue of testing, I took the pastor up on his challenge. I tested. I asked the same questions I asked you, Wally and others… and many more. I studied…I truly read through the Bible 7 times in just over two years. I read commentaries. I read and studied the original language to understand the background.

        What did I find? The answers?

        They lead more to a deeper, darker level of doubt…they do.

        God creates Satan? Inexplicable.

        God condones and commands genocide? An “almighty” God does this?

        Then, God’s character, as depicted IN the Bible. God is angry…wrathful…prejudiced…and God is just…loving? Lots of conflicts to test…lots.

        And, that led me to today…I am at peace with the conclusion: I do not believe.

        So, let’s do this. If you choose to have read this far…no need to comment unless you are truly interested in material on the consequences of teaching hell and the devil to children. Truly, you can delete this, all of my comments…frankly I expect it.

        If you are angry, frustrated or simply want to say, “Luke…you are wrong in this…you are wrong in that…” please, don’t waste your time or mine.

        You have your beliefs and answers you accept…and I have my non-belief, skepticism and questions–still lingering truly unanswered.

        All the best to you Cam, in all sincerity I wish you peace, health, hope, truth and prosperity to you and yours, luke

      4. Hi Luke,
        Your reasons for your atheistic religious indoctrination are irrelevant to me.

        You certainly have no idea what other parents teach their children, so making sweeping foolish and uninformed judgments leaves you ineffectual.
        If you truly believe that raising children in a Godly environment is child-abuse, then you should report it to the police. Let’s see how they deal with that and with you.

        The rest of your points are your atheistic beliefs about Christianity and bears no semblance to the truth, so I’ll not waste my time refuting them.

        How irresponsible of you to make the accusation I do not answer questions when I have just answered ALL your questions. You’ve lost any credibility or integrity you had Luke.

        When you are given answers to “your questions” and they’re not the answers that you want, that don’t mean the question was unanswered. It means you are closed off to any answer but the one you want. That’s not indicative of an intelligent, inquisitive, curious mind. That’s a person steeped in their own unbelief who has allowed their ‘doubts to become a stumbling block in their journey for an answer’. So what’s the point of you asking a question to which you have no interest in the given answer?
        And somehow you’re patting yourself on the back thinking you’re clever… far from it! You’re closed off and void of the capacity to learn and grow. You’re not being reasonable, you’re being foolish.

        You keep repeating your tired line of being ‘afraid of questions’ and ‘a faith that can’t be tested is a faith that can’t be trusted’… well, how can one be afraid of answering your questions when they’ve answered your questions. You’re just repeating nonsense.
        You should try having your own thoughts instead of parroting what all the other ill-informed members of your religion spout. It makes none of you look good. You’re pointing fingers at Christians when there’s more pointing right back at you.

        If you had any idea of Jesus’ approach to questioning, you wouldn’t bring Him up. Clearly you have no idea. Most of the questions put to Him, He responded with a question of His own. Since you’re a logical, reasoning man, you should know why. My approach is the same.

        Oh My… I laugh at your incredulity… my anger is palpable – you say. Luke, I realize you need to make stuff up in order to have something to say; but please don’t go too far overboard, you’ve been given enough latitude, don’t go hanging yourself, okay. Anger. You wish… lol.. you do not know me.

        Keep your stereotyping of Christians/bloggers to your deluded self. All posts remain… the proof is there that your questions were answered.

        Shalom to you as well.

      5. Temper…temper… And, I am right about the child abuse. Sorry…but you’re wrong, Cam. Women…children…suffer in this weirdness you seem to enjoy called “religion.”

        For the record, despite Hell and the devil being fictional characterizations offered in indoctrination–even the fiction can harm children because it is taught as “truth.”

        That’s not “godly” as you say…that’s abuse.

        I offered to give you the information…but you ignored it.

        Cam, don’t be angry…you have the answers…you are at peace. I am happy for you. I tried to stop this circular circus of deflections you offered many times yesterday and today.

        You can’t help yourself. Is that a trait of Christians…? Never mind…

        And, to clarify, you really did not answer the questions….you know that. The thread can be your mask of anonymity along with your icon, moniker, etc. (“Cam” despite your IP address, but don’t worry, I’m “one of the good ones” lol)

        But in all sincerity, you have to look in the mirror at some point and ask, “Am I right?”

  2. Another bit of “logic” And, this is a problem I have with the character of Yahweh. If you’re interested read this…think about it…and answer my questions.

    Today, a thirteen-year old girl, Aamira, was killed by a bomb in the civil war waging in Syria.

    Aamira was born in Syria. She grew up in a household faithful to Islam. She knew nothing else…just Islam.

    Islam, and its principles, is what she was told, taught and grew-up in. She never met a Christian missionary…she never went “online” and heard the “gospel.” She never went to a Joel Osteen service or read a Christian tract.

    Aamira was taught, in her Islamic faith, Jesus was a prophet and a good man…but NOT the “Son of God”, “Messiah” and “Savior.”

    That wasn’t part of her upbringing…Aamira’s LIFE.

    According to the Christian Bible, Aamira is lost…burning in hell this moment and will for eternity. She is being tormented for not “choosing” Christ.

    Right?

    Or, if I’m wrong…tell me how. Show me…isn’t this what you believe? Aamira is burning in hell…a sinner…failing to “choose” Jesus?

    Here’s the question: Did Aamira have a “choice”?

    According to the Bible, a just, loving, perfect Yahweh made Aamira and knew her before time began…right?

    Yet…Aamira is burning in hell. A thirteen year old girl growing up in Syria in a devout Islam family and community.

    Is this just? Is this loving? Is this “perfect” in purpose? If so, please explain.

    Truth: Aamira did not choose to follow Jesus Christ… “the way, the truth and the life” because of where she was born, her family, her culture, the community. Aamira had no “choice”–choosing Jesus, something she would not know or understand at her age in the community/family she grew-up, would be…highly unlikely. And, then, what would happen to Aamira if she had?

    Consider this: if you had been born in Pakistan, what religion would you put your faith in? Things would be different…a different life, family, husband…a different life.

    So, did a loving, just, perfect, almighty God purposefully create Aamira, a beautiful child–innocent and killed in religious violence– to go to hell?

    Or, was this Aamira’s choice?

    1. Hi Luke

      So…I take it this question is the question of the day? I can’t help but notice you have posted almost exactly the same question on my blog, Becky’s blog, and The Ancients’ blog. In the case of mine it actually has no relevance whatsoever to the content of the post. As such, I have no intention of actually addressing your question.

      Clearly, you have an agenda, and your agenda is not to get questions answered or actually engage in dialogue. Perhaps this will seem harsh, but your agenda is clearly atheist proselytizing. You can say what you want, but that is crystal clear. Your comment on my blog will stand, but not addressed. Consider that your last comment coupon. Any more obviously non related rabbit trails will be summarily deleted. Soon after to be followed by total moderation.

      Your turn. What have you come to love more than God? That is the issue here. It’s not your sudden epiphany that you were mistake all of those years as a believer. What is it that took the place of God?

      As before, I say this. I don’t know your heart. Perhaps you are a save child of God simply in full scale rebellion. In that case, God awaits you like the father waited on the prodigal. If you are not, then there is time until you draw your final breath to repent and believe. Choice…you have it. Why won’t you make the right one?

      Peace.

      1. Wally, Agenda? I asked a question about a reality. No worries, I will not respond or comment again on your blog–you can take it or leave it, whatever the Holy Ghost tells your loving, compassionate soul to do when a person asks a real question about your faith. Your “choice.”

        As for here, the link was back to my blog and you commented. You are a hypocrite for saying what you did and threatening being deleted and blocked, when you were here chatting a good bit about something posted on my blog. Hypocrite….yes…you are.

        Choice…you have it. You can follow Christ and his teachings…reflect his compassion and love…or ignore a simple question with the snarky self-righteousness you reflect here.

        Wally…I am at peace. I have no “guilt”. I have no “original sin” hanging over my head. I have no “hell” awaiting me…or a heaven. I have now…

        Just like you.

      2. Really Luke? Being Christ Like requires that I allow, and these other bloggers allow….unfettered atheist proselytizing? Hmmm..I will have to do some study to see if that is true. Ok, done. God’s Word never says that. Darn it.

        Peace Luke

      3. Wally, just what does being Christ-like mean to you?

        Is it patting other Christians on the back as they “like” your self-reassuring posts? Opening dialogue with non-believers and then, when reaching a point of conflict and contradiction you cannot bridge, you say, “Go away in peace”?

        Or, what was it Jesus said about “go”: to “Go into the world and…”

        What follows “and” is where you and many folks like you fail because you see questions as accusations. You build churches to keep the bad out for those brief moments on Sunday and Wednesday night. You stand in judgment, together, and when you here the word “go” you leave that up to paid missionaries.

        I wasn’t proselytizing. I asked you about a 13 year old girl who died in the violence in Syria and her “place” in eternity. That “fit” in every context. Despite your silly sarcasm…you chose to not answer. “Choice” is a big deal in faith…and you choose to be indifferent, avoiding answering a basic question about real people and your faith.

        Becky responded. She said Aamira and others like Aamira were NOT “innocent” (original sin) and would, today, be in the Christian hell, burning…being tormented.

        Is this what you believe? Little children growing up in India swept away by a tsunami die and go to hell…they had a choice?

        You can’t answer the question of “choice” and contradiction in the Yahweh character of loving and just with condemning and tormenting people like Aamira…can you, Wally? Or, you don’t want to because you know how that sounds…

      4. Luke

        That is some audacity on your part to judge me from a Book you don’t even believe. Wow

        Conversation is two way. You however among with all of the other atheist evangelists simply want to play interrogate the Christian. No answer we give you will suffice unless it is the conclusion you have already reached.

        So again peace

      5. You deflect…you neglect to answer.

        Wally, your God is watching you…is that your “conclusion”…? “I give up! I’m not going to answer tough questions!” Where’s the Holy Spirit when you need him…? I thought “he” was guiding you in answering questions?

        And, you proved, beyond-a-shadow-of-a-doubt, Wally, why I choose to not believe…your faith has no answers, only myths supported by hot air and deflections. Contradictions…deceit…lies. Yes, lies. And, you believe them and promote them.

        Enjoy your circular faith among friends and believing the God-of-the-gaps will help you with your “sins”, especially on the subject of “Go…”

        Delete me…block me…ban me…but if you keep responding you’ll only hear more truth.

        Can you stand it?

        I “doubt” it. lol

      6. “Don’t waste what is holy on people who are unholy. Don’t throw your pearls to pigs! They will trample the pearls, then turn and attack you.

      7. Wally, settle down, your judgment of me as a “pig” and “unholy” has unsettled you. Have you had your meds? (I’m not apologizing for that one…I’m serious…have you had your meds, Wally? Take them!)

      8. Yes…more scriptures to support your belief you can judge people as “pigs”

        Way to go, Wally, keep on…whatever fits your anger and judgment.

        I can take it. Why? Because it isn’t real…you might as well believe in Zeus.

        And, now, your anger has unsettled you into the worst pit of all…

        In addition to being a hypocrite…you are boring.

      9. Hi Wally,
        I just got back with the intent of responding and noticed you reply was the conclusion I had drawn.

        In the ongoing conversation I had with LAD this is what transpired:
        LAD: But some Christians have figured out a better approach, and they certainly do not say “oh well, it’s not my fault this isn’t what they want to hear.” My friend, I sincerely hope you have not chosen a career in sales.

        TA: Your advice is duly noted. Do you imagine you could teach your spiel to Jesus who says “those on the side of truth LISTENS to Me.”
        This is based on the previous conversation:

        LAD: “I needed [G]od to show me the right path.”

        TA: “Jesus said: I AM the way, the truth, and the life… That’s in His word… when you follow Him, you’ll be on the right path.

        TA: This was *your* response: “ if you had written that response to me when I was still a Christian, only beginning to doubt- I would be very discouraged. Some of it felt insulting and/or condescending (when you follow him you’ll be on the right path, it’s not the answer I wanted…);

        TA: How revealing & why bother if, in your words, you were “looking” only for the *answer that you wanted*.
        The pretense that you were genuinely seeking answers *is the real insult* to others who are genuinely seeking.

        So there it is Wally… those who say they’re seeking answers, then go on to disparage believers for not answering their question [read: give them the answers *they* want].
        So, what exactly are they hoping to achieve.

      10. That is exactly what they’re doing. And when we say anything that convicts them in their spirit/heart, they deflect by turning around to accuse us of: not listening, not understanding, of condescension, of insult you name it.

        It’s funny how they lump themselves in with those who are genuinely seeking 😦

        Our first goal is to first sanctify/set apart Christ Jesus as Lord of our lives.
        But they who value God at zero strive for us to do the same.
        Not gonna happen!

    2. Hi Luke,
      Are you a more righteous judge than God? Will He not do what is right & just?
      Was Aamira given the gospel that you were given and rejected it? – point being, what have you done with what was revealed or given to you.

      Have a nice day

      1. Cam, are you asking me–a non-believer–that question? If I do not believe in “he” how would I answer that…in a fictional sense?

        If I do not believe in the “God” you are referring, what sense does that make, Cam?

        Am I a more righteous judge than Darth Vader? Not much difference in the substitution if you believe “Yahweh” is fictional…right?

        So, you’re asking me if a fictional “God” is going to be just?

        Based on “his” own book, the Bible, the answer is “No!” even in the fictional sense.

        This “God” you say is just and perfect did what? Genocide…condoned murder…oppression of women…prejudice…racism…and created a hell to put children like Aamira? That’s the just, loving God you trust?

        C’mon, Cam, both the premise of your question and the suggestion of judgment (I am shocked at that one…I thought you were different in a better, progressive sense) lacks any validity because I do not believe.

        Judgment? That’s up to your fictional, unreasonable perspective of “Yahweh’s” character–a character littered with inconsistencies, conflicts, contradictions and harsh, prejudicial judgment.

        Is that the “God” you trust?

      2. My comment @ 9:34 AM was made while you were still writing, I imagine…
        amazing how it addressed your response @ 9:38 AM even before I got it 😛

      3. It didn’t address anything? Cam, listen to yourself…you are asking me, a non-believer, why I do not trust a “god” that I do not believe in?

        Insane? You said it…I didn’t

      4. Luke,
        the point is, likewise, you a non-believer are asking questions about the ways or character of a God you neither know nor believe in…
        What satisfactory answer could I give to you?
        What would be the point or purpose in providing an answer to a question you’ve posed but don’t even believe in the validity of the question itself 😦
        Yes, that is insane 😛

      5. I use your book. Isn’t that fair and just? I didn’t say, “Your book isn’t true!” I gave you credit that you believe it is…then when I ask you questions BASED ON YOUR OWN BOOK OF SCRIPTURE attesting to defining God’s character, love, justice…you call me insane?

        You have no validity. Read your original question, Cam, you’ve fallen in the pit of self-deception.

        SIMPLE SOLUTION, Cam…Answer the question about Aamira and I’ll listen to that. Otherwise, you’re still in a pit of self-deception of your own making

      6. LOL at your “logic”.
        So, you’ve read the Bible. okay
        So, you know the character of God. okay
        So I responded to your question with a question – which should have referred you back to the character of God [you know, the one you read of in Scripture] .

        And your response was that I’m asking you, a non-believer, why you do not trust in a God you do not believe in.

        That wasn’t my question to you at all.

        I’ve satisfactorily answered your question. With several questions in fact 😛
        Who is self-deluded?
        The one asking questions for which he’s already determined the answers he *wants* ; and places no value in the answers he gets…LOL
        or the one who refuses be ensnared in atheistic confusion.

      7. Cam, tell yourself whatever you choose to make yourself at peace. I’ve said it all…it is there in print (unless you delete it or edit it) I’m at peace with my lack of belief(s)

        Have a good day…over and out.

      8. Then you are making one up…Christian a la carte: pick and choose what you like from the Bible…ignore the rest.

        Yes, that is a perfect god…perfectly fictional and make-believe.

        You can’t have it both ways…or simply your way. If you base your faith on the Bible…what is true? What is false?

        Christianity a la carte…serving millions just like you, Cam, to “fit” what you want to believe

      9. LOL… you guys are funny.
        Are you now saying that you *know* God, in order to know that the God I trust is different from the one you know via reading Scripture?…
        hilarious Luke!… hilarious.

        Here’s some advice: instead of trying to ‘ensnare’ believers with foolish questions about a God you do not believe in… nor know…
        How about something more productive..
        Where did I come from?
        Where am I going?

      10. Your journey…your path…your choices.

        Truth: You still refuse to answer the question about Aamira…that is evidenced here.

        Good day…

      11. Exactly!
        My journey, my path, my choices. And I chose Him, Luke. Christ Jesus is Lord and Savior of my life. God is also my judge [Daniel].

        Ahh… I see you’ve learnt the futile and silly tactic of jz (a mentor, yes?)… My advice – that’s a dead end road, get off and retain any dignity you have. You’ll thank me for this muuchhh later.

        These tactics work with those who lack certainty or who think they must provide an (equally foolish) answer to a foolish question 🙂

      12. Foolish question? That’s your perspective. How many Aamira’s have lived and died (and burning in hell)???

        Irrelevant to you? That says a lot about your faith…and what are the self-indicting words: futile and silly?

        You said it…own it.

      13. Yes, foolish question.
        Where is Aamira Luke ?
        Are you her judge to know where she is?
        Would she have received Jesus if she heard the gospel?

        Yes, futile and silly isn’t it, to ask a question you will never know the answer to… but that’s the atheist logic.

      14. Judge? She is dead. Why ? Religious violence.

        I asked you, based on what you believe and put your faith, where you think Aamira is…and those like her (billions over time)?

        And, you said the question about a real person–real people–was silly, futile and irrelevant. If you think she and other children like her are burning in hell…say it–it’s your belief.

        If you do not think she is in hell…say it–and clear things up.

        Very simple…just answer the questions, Cam.

      15. This is what I meant by resorting to jz’s silly & futile tactic of repeating the question at least 6 times… and if that doesn’t work, twist and confuse their words to achieve a dubious ‘end’.

        Follow the sequence:
        I said God is her judge.
        Then I asked, are you more righteous than God.
        Then I asked, how would you or anyone else know that if the gospel was presented to her, she would have rejected it. – No one knows, and no one will ever know. So yes, it’s futile and silly to ask this question and expect a meaningful answer.

        If you knew the Bible as you claimed [belief here is irrelevant], you would have clearly understood the point.

      16. Read my last post…it is simple and clear. Stop deflecting…you are really embarrassing yourself if you just read the sequence of your comments.

        Cam, be real…answer the simple question or let it go…your choice.

      17. LOL… embarrassing myself? How would you know?
        What’s embarrassing is your inability to discern an answer that doesn’t come in the way you expected it to.

        I’m done with this conversation as well. bye.

      18. Do you realize how incoherent and trite and foolish the following from you is, considering you believe none of it:

        “If you think she and other children like her are burning in hell…say it–it’s your belief.”
        If you do not think she is in hell…say it–and clear things up.

        What’s the value to you of me ‘clear[ing] things up’ for you Luke?

      19. Cam…your choice. I guess if you believe it is no value to answering the same question originating the thread…after all of the many words you have written…you can be the “judge”

        Just let it go and walk away…your mind is sealed. I understand.

      20. Comprehension is key, Luke.
        My response is valuable.
        My response is of no value to you. As shown by your inability to even recognize a response.
        Big difference.

      21. Recognize what? No answer is evidenced. You are circling your circles…or wagons.

        How about this…this is a statement:

        The teaching of “hell” is immoral.

        You and anyone teaching that to children are indoctrinating a fear that is harmful to the child and society at large.

        “Hell” is a lie…something to scare people into doing things they need convinced to do. It was invented…made-up. Read your Bible. Study the original words–meanings, Cam.

        Gehenna is what, Cam? Answer that…

        Just what in the “hell” do you believe? Actually, I’m not interested. You can’t let go…like a dog hanging on to a bone…you just can’t walk away because you know the truth:

        You cannot defend your faith without deflection, anger, judgment, finger-pointing, pouting, sarcasm and relying on a complete disregard for intellectual integrity.

        Got it?

      22. hmmm… interesting comment Luke.
        You have no idea what I think of or do not think of hell. So your little rant is very much out of place 😛

      23. Then answer the question. Where’s Aamira’s soul, based on YOUR beliefs? (or, better characterized as “Christianity, a la carte”?)

      24. You have to be kidding…right? You answered that question…clearly, coherently?

        And, your emoticons are boring…as you are now becoming in your circular deflections.

        Let it go…Cam…just let it go. You have anonymity on your side…but of course, your God is watching…and according to you…judging.

        Good luck with that. (Fighting the urge to place an emoticon…)

      25. Strange that the “logical” mind of an atheist cannot understand why it’s meaningless to assume what someone else who can no longer choose would choose.

        Advice: when you and your friends decide to sit in judgment of God, instead of sitting under His judgment; when you all decide to weigh Him and find Him wanting…
        Know that He’s doing the same.
        Aamira is no longer in this physical world; neither you nor I know her heart. God does. He is her ultimate judge.
        As I said, you are not more just nor righteous than God is.
        You want to judge where Aamira is at… good, do so on your time, not on mine.

      26. Finally…thank you, Cam! You finally, clearly, offered a thorough deflective non-answer. And…that’s enough for me…that is an answer.

        Now, hang it up…toss in the towel…go get some fresh air.

      27. LOL… If I remembered how to do these emoticons I would send you a ‘boring one’ Wally.
        Yes, we’ve staked it all on feelings 😛 There ya go… don’t fall asleep now.

      28. You’re too gone…my friend. Cam…have a good life, I hope the belief in hell works for you.

        It doesn’t for me

      29. as just mentioned, you cannot possibly have any idea what I believe regarding hell… so again, your getting all worked up over nothing.

      30. That’s right–I do not. Despite asking over and over for you to clarify, you refuse to answer. Why won’t you answer?

    3. Luke,
      I also find this fascinating.
      You say you “do not believe in your Bible…in your Yahweh…in the “Trinity” and the character of Satan, the “place” hell, and the entire Adam & Eve to Revelation fiction that you are placing your faith…and basing your judgment of others different than you.”

      Yet here you are getting all bent out of shape over concepts you do not understand, nor believe.
      That’s insane.

      You’re the one wrongfully judging me & a God and book you do not believe 😛

  3. Wally, I thought you were ignoring me? Did you find the meds?

    Your anger unsettles you. Your doubts are evidenced–you simply cannot answer basic questions. So…you and Cam “deflect”…run…hide… and now, sarcasm? Not any ole sarcasm, but Christian Sarcasm!

    As noted before, Christian sarcasm is very weak–it lacks any teeth.

    Example from Wally Fry: “Wow that did it for me. your emoticons are boring. I now know that all I have believed is false”

    Yes…Wally…that lacks any semblance of “teeth” And, when something lacks teeth…the consequence: it sucks. (shucks…I can’t find the emoticon for a man running away or a chicken defecating)

  4. Most atheists would argue to their last breath that atheism is not a belief system.

    To give any reply full justice to this statement it would help if you could fully elaborate on what you understand by the term ”belief system”.

    Thanks.

    1. A belief-system is one’s world view Ark.
      It’s the things we believe, the things we do, the means by which we do them to give our lives meaning and purpose or to make sense of the world.

      1. Fair enough.
        As in believe about as much as believe in, right?

        1. I believe eating other animals is diabolical and disgusting.

        2. I consider teaching children that if they do not believe in the character Jesus of Nazareth they will be spending eternity in a make believe place called Hell to be immoral and tantamount to child abuse.

        How’s that for two examples of my personal worldview?

      2. It’s the perfect example of individuality within any belief-system.
        Which is why you guys should lay off the whole 40,000 denominations stuff… because even within those denominations everyone thinks differently… we’re all individuals.

        As I pointed out to Luke.
        Christians agree on the fundamentals: Jesus Christ is Lord, his death and most important His resurrection.

        Atheists agree on the fundamental: there is no God or at least they deny it.

      3. Not exactly.
        What atheists generally state is the evidence presented so far does not warrant belief in any gods.
        Your god is just one of a great many and is nothing special.

        As you dismiss Thor I dismiss Yahweh, and likely based on similar grounds too, I expect.

      4. Well, obviously not , some are female for a kick-off -but they all have similar qualities – namely they all appear man-made, ( or woman-made to be PC) which is the reason atheists give them no credibility.

        Even Yahweh started life among a plethora of Canaanite deities and even had a consort ( Meaning: a bit of fluff between you and me) before the Hebrews nabbed him and elevated up the ladder to numero-uno then set about doing away with all the others.
        It’s right there in the Torah. Sorry … Old Testament to you.
        You have read it, ( and understand it) I presume?

      5. I agree, all created gods have similar qualities making them simply idols.

        The Uncreated God, El Elyon/Yahweh Elohim is just that: uncreated, has always existed.
        Big difference.

      6. Well, you only have biblical text to tout as your evidence and as I have already pointed out this is simply a man-made text/compilation and Yahweh was one god among quite a number of Canaanite deities.

        Christianity is an evolved religion and it was the Hebrews(Jews) who singled out Yahweh, dumped his piece of skirt, and set about eradicating belief in all the others.
        This un-created thing you’ve got going is simply theology, Ancients, nothing more.
        Bit of dogma and doctrine thrown in to make it look ”respectable”

        I reiterate, your god was originally a Canaanite deity, and one of many.
        Don’t feel bad.
        It’s just one of those things.
        The truth hits everybody – eventually.

      7. Biblical text is one, and should not be undervalued as you are doing.
        Long before it was established that Belshazzar actually lived, Daniel spoke about him in some detail. This was verified when a cuneiform was found with his name.
        https://ferrelljenkins.wordpress.com/2012/02/24/the-big-three-nabonidus-belshazzar-and-daniel/

        The Bible is the only book that tells of human history here on planet earth; that speaks of things that happened in the beginning, and things that will happen in the end, as well as things in between.

      8. The bible is largely historical fiction.
        Yes, some figures are genuine, but then one can easily craft a story and include actual historical characters – I did that in my first published book where the footballer, John Barnes played a pivotal role.
        It is no great feat, let me tell you.

        And archaeology has shown that the Exodus etc as recorded in the bible is simply a geopolitical myth.

        So your bible is neither reliable history or evidence.

      9. If the story is so easy to craft as you like to say, why hasn’t other gods crafted their own historical account in a similar manner to the Bible – by this I mean: predict verifiable events in the future; 44 authors spanning ~3500 years writing a cohesive narrative.

        Archaeology has shown no such thing. The interpretation by archaeologists that you agree with says there’s no evidence.

        The reality is, we’ll always be at an impasse.
        You believe what you choose to, I do the same.

      10. If the story is so easy to craft as you like to say, why hasn’t other gods crafted their own historical account in a similar manner to the Bible –

        First up, let me correct you there …. to date, there is no evidence that any god ever crafted their own historical account; every account was written by humans.

        I explained why Christianity got the jump on its early competitors – Constantine.
        And remember,the first ones that were slaughtered after his initial decree were …. Christians.
        And the samr thng happened after Theodosius and again after Luther etc etc.
        In fact, it is quite possible that Christians have been responsible for the slaughter of their fellow Christians simply for not believing in the ”right” Christianity.”

        Archaeology has shown no such thing. The interpretation by archaeologists that you agree with says there’s no evidence.

        Actually, archaeological evidence has shown how ancient Palestine was settled; which was pretty much largely internal and by and large relatively peaceful ( for the time). This is known as the Settlement Pattern and has been known for several generations.
        It is certainly the consensus among archaeologists and scholars – except fundamentalists of course.
        Read, Dever Herzog, Finkelstein – or watch a Youtube.
        And donlt shoot the messenger. These people have spent most f their adult lives digging in the Sinai and give or take a few details their views are held by pretty much every recognised archaeologist.

        The reality is, we’ll always be at an impasse.
        You believe what you choose to, I do the same.

        Please don’t cry ”impasse” for goodness’ sake, and throw in the towel.
        We are both after the same thing – Truth.
        So let’s examine the evidence.

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